chewy Posted November 13, 2014 Report Share Posted November 13, 2014 Been sold on the dream (the marketing video) ..skimmed through this forum do we yet know the nitty gritty? or do we have to walk into the showroom? Purchase price Warranty period test ride One assumes the shows are for importers ...dealers to make a pitch for distribution patch rights (lord knows why in this day and and age ..any serious problems will allways bounce back to manufacturer anyway) so perhaps we have to wait for answers until these costs are sorted out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Posted November 13, 2014 Author Report Share Posted November 13, 2014 From what I know - availability mid 2015. UK importer will be Sir Douglas of Lampkinland and price as yet unknown. Factory is currently being built in Barcelona not far from Montesa factory. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve Posted November 13, 2014 Report Share Posted November 13, 2014 #100 yes very funny. The electric water pump will put load (resistance) on the engine because of the torque required to generate its driving electricity. Then there will be efficiency losses during generation, rectification and in the electric motor of the pump itself. The reason Beta cases corrode is because they are magnesium alloy (to make them lighter) and possibly more suited to thin moulding. Because of its position in the galvanic series relative to aluminium rapid corrosion occurs. Honda CR MX bikes suffered the same. EFI on cars always desirable? - anyone priced a GDI recently? Re the water pump, I don't think you quite see the point I was trying to make - I can't spout fancy words but my simplistic view is that the engine is constanly changing speed, when the throttle is cracked open we need the revs to pick up nice and quickly. Picture it like you are pushing your hand through water, it takes a little effort to push your hand through steadily but if you suddenly try to move your hand quickly the water is resisting that movement. Is that not the same as suddenly trying to pump water round the engine quickly? whereas an electric pump will maintain a nice steady speed and the engine can speed up and slow down with no mechanical resistance. Or have I got it totally wrong and the elctrical resistance is the same as the mechanical with regards to speed change? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve_earle Posted November 13, 2014 Report Share Posted November 13, 2014 Just skimmed through this, The electric water pump has been mentioned to put load on the engine, Yes this is true, I wont get into it technically but go to any older car, start it up turns the lights on, high beam and the heater on full and see the engine drop in revs at idle because of the load on the alternator. If the windings in the bikes stator are up to it I don't see this a problem as the negative effect is negative so to speak as the bike doesn't go everywhere at idle. I'm excited about this Vertigo, It's an Ossa with the engine the right way round. I really like it but would not buy one (couldnt afford it any way), Till 3 years down the line when the teething problems are ironed and they are on the 12th map etc just like the ossa as they are now a great bike. Out of all the new brands this is the only one that has ticked boxes for me and if money was no object I would sign up for one today. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dadof2 Posted November 13, 2014 Report Share Posted November 13, 2014 Steve, this is what you wrote on #99. " Perhaps even improving engine performance as there will be no resistance when reving." Had what you wrote been true, the Vertigo would have been really remarkable, its water pump being no less that a perpetual motion machine. Now that you have explained what you meant I agree with what you were trying to say. I have actually read quite a lot of in depth research on electric water pumps for internal combustion engines and they do have potential advantages for warm up and fuel economy but they also have significant drawbacks of which reliability is just one and that is why they have not been widely used on cars. Here are just some of the drawbacks of electric pumps. Unless they are massively oversized for normal running they not capable of maintaining sufficient pressure at high engine speeds to prevent localised hot spots and boiling. The alternator has to be sized to accommodate the pumps current draw, This in turn leads to the alternator having more static and rotating mass to be paid for, accelerated and decelerated. Atomant #105. You are making a judgement on me based on far too little information. I actually have a very good track record on design and innovation. The use of technology has to be appropriate, in the case of an electric pump I believe the increased complexity more than negates any performance benefit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
copemech Posted November 14, 2014 Report Share Posted November 14, 2014 Well, if you have an electrical fan, what is the difference if you have an electrical pump? If one fails it will overheat anyway! Narrower engine with no pump hanging out to bash on a rock! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
axulsuv Posted November 14, 2014 Report Share Posted November 14, 2014 (edited) I believe in electric water pumps and the fan system designed for the vertigo . From what I have read it is a pulse width modulated system responding to ambient and internal temp . aka moving the coolant slower at times so it has more time to absorb and dissipate heat . And if the coolant passages are designed from the start with this system in mind , hot spots will not be a issue . And electric water pumps are not in use in mass produced cars yet because of cost i believe , not because of a lack of reliability , some hybrids already use them and I'm pretty sure there are alot of BMW's out there with electric pumps . And we've been using them in drag racers for years ......... Glenn . ROCK ON VERTIGO !!! INNOVATION is a GOOD THING !!! Edited November 14, 2014 by axulsuv 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigel dabster Posted November 14, 2014 Report Share Posted November 14, 2014 Steve, this is what you wrote on #99. " Perhaps even improving engine performance as there will be no resistance when reving." Had what you wrote been true, the Vertigo would have been really remarkable, its water pump being no less that a perpetual motion machine. Now that you have explained what you meant I agree with what you were trying to say. I have actually read quite a lot of in depth research on electric water pumps for internal combustion engines and they do have potential advantages for warm up and fuel economy but they also have significant drawbacks of which reliability is just one and that is why they have not been widely used on cars. Here are just some of the drawbacks of electric pumps. Unless they are massively oversized for normal running they not capable of maintaining sufficient pressure at high engine speeds to prevent localised hot spots and boiling. The alternator has to be sized to accommodate the pumps current draw, This in turn leads to the alternator having more static and rotating mass to be paid for, accelerated and decelerated. Atomant #105. You are making a judgement on me based on far too little information. I actually have a very good track record on design and innovation. The use of technology has to be appropriate, in the case of an electric pump I believe the increased complexity more than negates any performance benefit. Drawbacks you mentioned drawbacks? d you know the meaning of the word applied to heavy lumps of bikes? I say good luck to vertigo if they choose to have an elctric pump lets see how it is before we (dadoff) hypothesises it doesnt work. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atomant Posted November 14, 2014 Report Share Posted November 14, 2014 (edited) Steve, this is what you wrote on #99. " Perhaps even improving engine performance as there will be no resistance when reving." Had what you wrote been true, the Vertigo would have been really remarkable, its water pump being no less that a perpetual motion machine. Now that you have explained what you meant I agree with what you were trying to say. I have actually read quite a lot of in depth research on electric water pumps for internal combustion engines and they do have potential advantages for warm up and fuel economy but they also have significant drawbacks of which reliability is just one and that is why they have not been widely used on cars. Here are just some of the drawbacks of electric pumps. Unless they are massively oversized for normal running they not capable of maintaining sufficient pressure at high engine speeds to prevent localised hot spots and boiling. The alternator has to be sized to accommodate the pumps current draw, This in turn leads to the alternator having more static and rotating mass to be paid for, accelerated and decelerated. Atomant #105. You are making a judgement on me based on far too little information. I actually have a very good track record on design and innovation. The use of technology has to be appropriate, in the case of an electric pump I believe the increased complexity more than negates any performance benefit. What increased complexity are we talking here? We are not talking about fitting a nuclear pulsed propulsion system, we are fitting an electric water pump ! .. First invented back in the 30's and there are just pages and pages of patented electric water pump innovations since then. Don't tell me why things wont work. Tell me how you can make them work ! Oh and another thing, did you see in that video any discernible loss of power from that engine due to the extra draw of the power to drive the water pump? Edited November 14, 2014 by atomant 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gasgas249uk Posted November 14, 2014 Report Share Posted November 14, 2014 Dadoff. You are a pioneer in the new wave of industrialization simplification which will emerge from the constant development of fallible tech and our gathering frustration with it. If dont feel appreciated , dont worry. In 50 years your going to be a hero Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigel dabster Posted November 14, 2014 Report Share Posted November 14, 2014 Bloody hell james are you wanting him to spout off again? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ham2 Posted November 14, 2014 Report Share Posted November 14, 2014 ...which feeds back to my point: 31 BHP How? and Why? Does the 'leccy pump free up that much wallop? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigel dabster Posted November 14, 2014 Report Share Posted November 14, 2014 if it does the others will soon follow. im guessing works ossas and gas gas produce 27ish so 4 more is substantial if correct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smalley250 Posted November 14, 2014 Report Share Posted November 14, 2014 I have a 300 GasGas racing not sure on Hp power but its smooth however 31Hp seems extreme for novice/inter. Mechanical is generally more reliable given the working environment and i would sit back on this and wish them well as Dougie is a great ambassador to the sport. My greatest concern is the frame too many joints to my liking to last over several years, hopefully wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trialsrfun Posted November 14, 2014 Report Share Posted November 14, 2014 Reading the write up on the Vertigo it states a weight of 65kgs but says that this can be reduced to 62kgs by purchasing other parts, just where can 3kgs be saved from a minimal build trials bike and what might be the cost? I cannot think of any part of the bike where a part could be substituted and save 3kgs that is a lot of weight to trim back. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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