steve_earle Posted November 14, 2014 Report Share Posted November 14, 2014 A set of titanium bolts and spindles will save a huge amount, Then magnesium swing arm and lower fork tubes and a carbon fiber air box. Also you could remove 1st gear like Dabills factory evo to save a few more grams. All this should see it under 60kgs presuming it's a Real 65kg in the 1st place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
copemech Posted November 15, 2014 Report Share Posted November 15, 2014 (edited) Dadoff. You are a pioneer in the new wave of industrialization simplification which will emerge from the constant development of fallible tech and our gathering frustration with it. If dont feel appreciated , dont worry. In 50 years your going to be a hero I may have beat him to it! When I heard what a fuel pump for a 4RT cost $600, I said no way! When was that? Near ten years ago I think! Good dose of EMP and none of this crap is going to run, anyway! Toss your cars and your Iphones, only ones on bikes will be the lucky blokes with an old Bultaco with points and a carby! Edited November 15, 2014 by copemech Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canada280i Posted November 15, 2014 Report Share Posted November 15, 2014 if it does the others will soon follow. im guessing works ossas and gas gas produce 27ish so 4 more is substantial if correct. The electric waterpump for the ossa and gas gas is already available via xiu-rdi: http://xiurdi.com/ossa-tr280i/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
airman Posted November 15, 2014 Report Share Posted November 15, 2014 Thanks TC and Vertigo for the free T shirt ! Now all I need is the to Bike to match 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael_t Posted November 15, 2014 Report Share Posted November 15, 2014 Hey Kevin, That is awesome !!! Thanks again for putting on such a great event this year. With that t-shirt we will need to make the sections a little tougher, as I am sure it is going to take your TY to the next level of competition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
biffsgasgas Posted November 15, 2014 Report Share Posted November 15, 2014 Well i gotta say that i am happy about everybodys thoughts here... This is a sign, to me at least, that people are passionate about the sport and the bikes, the inovation and restraint in accepting new technology. Much like yourself atomant i too am in that field and part of a very public yet criticized technology. This technology is being revamped based on lessons learned. One of the lessons learned of course is "less is more" in a few instances. Too much change too soon with percieved effect worries people. I am all about the technology here but my trust can be destroyed in a moments notice poo f this new thing fails someone. Most on here can agree that trust has its limits. Frankly my trust in a particular brand is usually driven by carry over proven design. It took time to "prove" that design to me. Once it did i was bit hard and felt compelled to prove others. Most of us dont ride just to buy the next piece of technology. We ride because we love trials and a machine that makes it possible is what we want at the core. Are you for real? you seem to be worried about the 'load' on the mag to generate the electricity to power the pump. So what about the load required to drive a mechanical pump and it's inefficiencies? Do you just sit there thinking of the most negative thing you can think of and spout this crap. Do you not think that designers learn from these things and re-design things to overcome these issues? I've been in design engineering/automation now for 31 years and what I've learnt in all the time, is NEVER work with people like you because nothing would ever get developed. Btw i am for real and if im not i have been fooled into thinking one heck of a cool dream of logs, hills, mud, water, and pegs with feet on them... Dreaming on. --Biff 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dadof2 Posted November 15, 2014 Report Share Posted November 15, 2014 Don’t blame James for this large spout The power consumed by electric pumps and mechanical pumps when running is broadly the same and it is so low to be negligible on a trials bike. On a car because the radiator spans the height of the water jacket and the hoses are large bore the coolant can circulate by themosiphon meaning much of the time the pump need not run and no energy is drawn from the engine. This coupled with faster warm up from cold start will give significant fuel savings and this has been clearly demonstrated. Also electric pumps can be very reliable, fuel pumps on cars and central heating pumps generally run for many years problem free. However despite these advantages electric water pumps are not widely used. Cost of the pump and control circuitry / sensors are a factor but there are technical drawbacks as well. Although most coolant systems nominally operate at about 1 bar, the part of the system between the pump outlet and engine outlet often operate at much higher pressure, possibly 2 to 3 bar. The purpose of this increased pressure is to raise the boiling point of the coolant and prevent micro bubbles forming on hot parts of the engines. When they form micro bubbles (and larger) act as an insulator and lead to localised overheating. An electric pump has to be substantial wattage to achieve 2 to 3 bar whereas a mechanical pump has adequate engine power available. When throttle opens to accelerate and revs increase, in an engine with a mechanical pump heat generation and coolant flow increase simultaneously, pressure builds to prevent bubbles / hot spots before they form. In this situation the drawback with an electric pump is that it does not respond to increased demand until its sensors detect that the temperature has risen. It then pumps rapidly, dumping cool water on metal quite probably already many times boiling point. This thermal cycling is bad for the coolant and bad for the metal. Systems involving multiple temperature sensors, sensors linked to throttle position and tachometer and an ECU to make it all work can reduce these problems but add significantly to complexity, cost and more components means more possibility of failure. The above comes from research on larger multi cylinder car engines, where fuel saving / emissions reductions are the aim. But the principles apply to single cylinder engines as well, especially as ECU, enlarged alternator, pump and control circuitry are a much higher percentage of manufacturing cost on a trials bike than on a luxury car. My dislike of having and electric pump on a trials bike is because there are enough problems already with, electric fans, thermostat switch, rectifiers and regulators already without adding more items to go wrong. All the problems with mechanical pumps on trial bikes are the result of cost cutting, weight cutting or poor design. In my view an ideal coolant circulation system on a trials bike would consist of, a mechanical pump, a coolant driven fan and a translucent header tank clearly visible from the riding position. No electrics at all and two clear indicators (fan rotation and coolant level) of system condition. I have no wish to criticise the Vertigo but to me its complexity is a turn off, not a selling point. Quite some years ago now non franchised garages and government realised there was going to be a problem maintaining complex vehicle systems and as a result the onboard diagnostics legislation (now OBD II) was brought in. Unfortunately no such legislation exists for motorcycles and Montesa, Ossa and now Vertigo (presumably) all have their own systems which won’t communicate with standard diagnostic tools. Sooner or later this lack of OBD compatibility is going to have a significant negative impact on users of complex and EFI motorcycles. There is also an as yet unmentioned drawback to EFI on current trials motorcycles. They do not have exhaust (lambda) sensors. This means if there is a non EFI problem downstream of the sensors causing a weak or rich mixture, the EFI won’t have a clue what is wrong (it won’t even know something is wrong) and you engine could be wrecked. Nor can motorcycle EFI distinguish between different fuel grades and those containing different percentages of ethanol, meaning the EFI cannot adjust the fuelling and ignition parameters correctly. 30 years ago I had a car with a V6 engine and a Webber carburettor, my present car although EFI and about 25 mph faster, gives worse mpg and is no better at all for actual driving. Call me a luddite if you like, but what really is progress? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigel dabster Posted November 15, 2014 Report Share Posted November 15, 2014 If anyone reads the whole of that post let me know. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddie_lejeune Posted November 15, 2014 Report Share Posted November 15, 2014 great post! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigel dabster Posted November 16, 2014 Report Share Posted November 16, 2014 Must be a pile of ***** then. This simply cannot be true if you want to come on here and make stuff up then go ahead. V6 in the uk in 2014 who sells them apart from MB/audi? 30 years ago I had a car with a V6 engine and a Webber carburettor, my present car although EFI and about 25 mph faster, gives worse mpg and is no better at all for actual driving. Call me a luddite if you like, but what really is progress? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnyboxer Posted November 16, 2014 Report Share Posted November 16, 2014 Dont blame James for this large spout The power consumed by electric pumps and mechanical pumps when running is broadly the same and it is so low to be negligible on a trials bike. On a car because the radiator spans the height of the water jacket and the hoses are large bore the coolant can circulate by themosiphon meaning much of the time the pump need not run and no energy is drawn from the engine. This coupled with faster warm up from cold start will give significant fuel savings and this has been clearly demonstrated. Also electric pumps can be very reliable, fuel pumps on cars and central heating pumps generally run for many years problem free. However despite these advantages electric water pumps are not widely used. Cost of the pump and control circuitry / sensors are a factor but there are technical drawbacks as well. Although most coolant systems nominally operate at about 1 bar, the part of the system between the pump outlet and engine outlet often operate at much higher pressure, possibly 2 to 3 bar. The purpose of this increased pressure is to raise the boiling point of the coolant and prevent micro bubbles forming on hot parts of the engines. When they form micro bubbles (and larger) act as an insulator and lead to localised overheating. An electric pump has to be substantial wattage to achieve 2 to 3 bar whereas a mechanical pump has adequate engine power available. When throttle opens to accelerate and revs increase, in an engine with a mechanical pump heat generation and coolant flow increase simultaneously, pressure builds to prevent bubbles / hot spots before they form. In this situation the drawback with an electric pump is that it does not respond to increased demand until its sensors detect that the temperature has risen. It then pumps rapidly, dumping cool water on metal quite probably already many times boiling point. This thermal cycling is bad for the coolant and bad for the metal. Systems involving multiple temperature sensors, sensors linked to throttle position and tachometer and an ECU to make it all work can reduce these problems but add significantly to complexity, cost and more components means more possibility of failure. The above comes from research on larger multi cylinder car engines, where fuel saving / emissions reductions are the aim. But the principles apply to single cylinder engines as well, especially as ECU, enlarged alternator, pump and control circuitry are a much higher percentage of manufacturing cost on a trials bike than on a luxury car. My dislike of having and electric pump on a trials bike is because there are enough problems already with, electric fans, thermostat switch, rectifiers and regulators already without adding more items to go wrong. All the problems with mechanical pumps on trial bikes are the result of cost cutting, weight cutting or poor design. In my view an ideal coolant circulation system on a trials bike would consist of, a mechanical pump, a coolant driven fan and a translucent header tank clearly visible from the riding position. No electrics at all and two clear indicators (fan rotation and coolant level) of system condition. I have no wish to criticise the Vertigo but to me its complexity is a turn off, not a selling point. Quite some years ago now non franchised garages and government realised there was going to be a problem maintaining complex vehicle systems and as a result the onboard diagnostics legislation (now OBD II) was brought in. Unfortunately no such legislation exists for motorcycles and Montesa, Ossa and now Vertigo (presumably) all have their own systems which wont communicate with standard diagnostic tools. Sooner or later this lack of OBD compatibility is going to have a significant negative impact on users of complex and EFI motorcycles. There is also an as yet unmentioned drawback to EFI on current trials motorcycles. They do not have exhaust (lambda) sensors. This means if there is a non EFI problem downstream of the sensors causing a weak or rich mixture, the EFI wont have a clue what is wrong (it wont even know something is wrong) and you engine could be wrecked. Nor can motorcycle EFI distinguish between different fuel grades and those containing different percentages of ethanol, meaning the EFI cannot adjust the fuelling and ignition parameters correctly. 30 years ago I had a car with a V6 engine and a Webber carburettor, my present car although EFI and about 25 mph faster, gives worse mpg and is no better at all for actual driving. Call me a luddite if you like, but what really is progress? I thought Montesa did a header with a sensor in it, everybody junks it for a Mitani though My BMW GSA has sensors for the EFI & BMW have been using EFI on bikes since 1994 with very few problems They can adjust them for all petrol fuel types EFI on bikes isn't new & is well understood Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
axulsuv Posted November 16, 2014 Report Share Posted November 16, 2014 (edited) And I believe coolant driven rad fans (or ps fluid driven ) have been tried and marketed by more than one auto manufacturer ... With little to no success , or they would still be in use ... Edited November 16, 2014 by axulsuv Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jj65 Posted November 16, 2014 Report Share Posted November 16, 2014 If think some of you guys are missing the point, the vertigo is a New Bike, no one is going to manufacture a "simplified bike" no matter what you might want. It's 2014 and regulations have to be met and to be fair, Vertigo want to sell a cutting edge modern bike that's innotive and perform better than anyone else's. The frame is the brands identity, instantly recognisable, the engine has to be competitive to the highest level and everything else is available of the shelf. They've done a great job, but until we can have a go (the video shows us nothing that Doug couldn't do on anyother brands bike) we won't know if it's as good as it looks. Sure it'll probably have a few little niggles, just like all the other brands have, but hopefully nothing serious and they'll give great back up and parts availability. Wether you like it or not, EFi is here to stay, it's been on the 4rt since 2005 and there haven't been loads of issues with it failing (most issues are with the tea bag fuel pump filter clogging). Electric water pump, who knows how that will fair, but surely a lot of its reliability will be down to the quality of the parts and I believe that they rejected a lot of electrical parts used by other brands after testing them and finding them not reliable. For all the people on this website, be honest, how many of you will actually buy a new bike, whatever the brand, this year, next year or the year after? Especially a top end priced one. Let's face it, you either like it, or you don't, there's plenty of choice out there. Good luck to them I say (I wonder if a 4rt motor would slot in that frame :0). 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atomant Posted November 16, 2014 Report Share Posted November 16, 2014 dadof2. You clearly want the most basic machine possible and that's fair enough, but Vertigo are attempting to break new ground for a trials bike, Monoshock, Water cooling, Fuel Injection - Ignition Mapping and others have all come and others will follow. This is just another step in the evolution of trials bikes and for me, I have to admire someone taking a risk and due respect for that. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted November 16, 2014 Report Share Posted November 16, 2014 Bmw and Montesa(read Honda) are more experienced with efi and their build quality is rather better than most Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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