baldilocks Posted December 10, 2014 Report Share Posted December 10, 2014 Heard similar tales from garages about super market diesel. Fuel quality will not help carbs or injectors. Most bikes with a carb have a filter as part of the tap Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trialsrfun Posted December 10, 2014 Report Share Posted December 10, 2014 Personally I avoid supermarket fuel like the plague, I find compared to branded fuels performance and mpg are both reduced many other people have said similar. Use super unleaded in the trials bike. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baldilocks Posted December 10, 2014 Report Share Posted December 10, 2014 Yes i use super unleaded in the bike. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baldilocks Posted December 10, 2014 Report Share Posted December 10, 2014 So back to Vertigo A five year old carb is worn, not that it stops the bike running but may effect performance. At £100 for an injector if it lasts a number of years i don't think its really an issue 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neils on wheels Posted December 10, 2014 Report Share Posted December 10, 2014 Your right... other than the spelling of optimize... everything is spot on. Well done sir. So lets turn this back to Vertigo. Given that "someone" might drop this bike at some point. Looking at the frame do you think that a simple blunder might compromise its integrity? Thank You Biff, however I suspect we may have an easier time agreeing on engineering issues than on spelling and the correct use of English grammar ;-) From looking at the internet photos, I'd suggest the steel lattice tubes would not be too vulnerable, maybe slightly more so than the simple diamond frames of Gas Gas and Sherco, but certainly less so than the integrated tank, aluminium structure of Beta and Jotagas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dadof2 Posted December 10, 2014 Report Share Posted December 10, 2014 Neil # 208. Putting specific in front of density was just a typing error, I was going to type something else, changed my mind and missed deleting specific. I did mean density. I do know plenty about steel, Titanium and Aluminium, having machined, punched pressed and welded them all and been involved in design of items from them. In another post I mentioned I was involved in machine tool design, well we never used titanium for that but we did switch from cast iron and steel to Duraluminium to reduce reciprocating mass. I fully accept what you and others have posted regarding the physical properties but there is more to it than that. Because titanium is so light you can increase section size, this means it is the increased section that gives the stiffness not the material properties, same comment goes for adding bracing. Cycle frames in Al and Ti compared to Fe are a clear example of light larger sections. Ti and Al are the preferred material or aerospace despite being much more expensive than Fe. My info on Jeff Smith / BSA was based on an interview he gave many years ago, not a technical analysis. The BSA titanium frame despite being lighter and stiffer did not handle as well and was subject to cracking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dadof2 Posted December 10, 2014 Report Share Posted December 10, 2014 Nigel #201 Not answering questions again but just turning them round? Give me a straight question and I will try to answer it. you think jeff smiths bsa (when did they fold?) scrambler has a direct relation to 2015 trials? Yes insofar as both have chassis stiffness as a discussion issue. Glad to get your feelings on DL great insight. The fact that my feelings are the opposite, having seen him up close in the wtc quite a few times, are the opposite, ie when under pressure be it either injury or adversity is when hes performed best. I agree that he can dig deep when under pressure etc, but my comments on ankle injury and change of bike are at least as valid. It should be also noted you have failed to address the questions above, ie why do YOU think efi is not an advantage and why do you know more than vertigo? You have slightly misquoted me but here goes. I said EFI has not yet demonstrated a competitive advantage, meaning with regards to 2T trials engines. For example BBs Ossa was running crap at the section in AGs back garden (you can look back at my post on this) and there is hardly an ossa rider who has not had fuelling / starting issues and had to have the bike remapped sometimes several times. Do I know more than Vertigo? I don't know but I have been working on EFI since DL was running round in shorts and am am well aware of its drawbacks. My perspective is that of a club rider who has to run bikes on a budget, DL and Vertigo backed by a multimillionaire will have a different perspective. Again if you look at another post I made I said I would rather carry a 50 pence screwdriver than a £500 laptop and leads. A Dellorto PHBL is something like £120 / £140 very reliably and easily adjusted. EFI needs an injector, TPS and various other sensors, high pressure pump, pressure regulator, ECU and extra wiring loom and power, larger alternator + rectifier + capacitors (or battery). All this adds cost and complexity (more to go wrong), EFI is more sensitive to fuel and oil quality. One of EFIs advantages (on 4T) is its ability to respond to Lambda output. Lambda sensors are expensive and not suitable for 2T nor the environment in which a trial bike is used. If fuel spill from carbs becomes an environmental issue a catch tank on the drain tubes and a simple diaphragm pump to return it to the tank is a simple cheap solution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dadof2 Posted December 10, 2014 Report Share Posted December 10, 2014 Fuel quality. The branded stuff is in most cases the same base fuel as the supermarket stuff, comes out of the same tanks at the refinery and is carried on the same tankers. Difference is the additive package that is added just before despatch from "refinery". Quite a few years ago many karters reckoned Shell was best. A few weeks ago I was talking to a multiple British champion (4 wheels) and BP Ultimate was presently giving best HP on dyno. About 3 years ago a mechanic for a WRC team told me the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
axulsuv Posted December 11, 2014 Report Share Posted December 11, 2014 I may be a old fashioned prude , but I run all my bikes on AVE gas .... Just because it doesn't turn to $hit in a few days And All my bikes start first or second kick .... no matter how long they've been untouched ... Just my two pence on fuel . Glenn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigel dabster Posted December 11, 2014 Report Share Posted December 11, 2014 Billy Bolts ossa as an example of performance, dont make me laugh!Whatever his ability (considerable!) he is one of the hardest on a (trials) bike I have ever seen except maybe Alfredo Gomez and taddy on occasions. You cannot use one anecdotal example,as you in every argument and turn it into 100% fact. ...and to say that maybe you know as much as vertigo is pomposity in the extreme. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atomant Posted December 11, 2014 Report Share Posted December 11, 2014 (edited) Do I know more than Vertigo? I don't know but I have been working on EFI since DL was running round in shorts and am am well aware of its drawbacks. My perspective is that of a club rider who has to run bikes on a budget, DL and Vertigo backed by a multimillionaire will have a different perspective. Again if you look at another post I made I said I would rather carry a 50 pence screwdriver than a £500 laptop and leads. A Dellorto PHBL is something like £120 / £140 very reliably and easily adjusted. EFI needs an injector, TPS and various other sensors, high pressure pump, pressure regulator, ECU and extra wiring loom and power, larger alternator + rectifier + capacitors (or battery). All this adds cost and complexity (more to go wrong), EFI is more sensitive to fuel and oil quality. One of EFIs advantages (on 4T) is its ability to respond to Lambda output. Lambda sensors are expensive and not suitable for 2T nor the environment in which a trial bike is used. If fuel spill from carbs becomes an environmental issue a catch tank on the drain tubes and a simple diaphragm pump to return it to the tank is a simple cheap solution. Ok we all get you now - You think the the whole trials scene should be based on 30+ year technology to ensure that the costs are cheap for the rider and its simple to fix!, but you are so missing the point ! People like technologies to advance and be part of it - Just like people of old liked to mess with jetting, they now like to experiment with mapping. Trials has always been about the machine and not just riding it. Trials is still a very cheap Motorsport if you want it to be that way and for others, its a hobby that they love and enjoy by changing things on the machine - Just look at the custom after sales parts available that people buy!. So, please move on from your tired position - I think we are all getting bored with it now.. Edited December 11, 2014 by atomant 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neils on wheels Posted December 11, 2014 Report Share Posted December 11, 2014 Neil # 208. Putting specific in front of density was just a typing error, I was going to type something else, changed my mind and missed deleting specific. I did mean density. I do know plenty about steel, Titanium and Aluminium, having machined, punched pressed and welded them all and been involved in design of items from them. In another post I mentioned I was involved in machine tool design, well we never used titanium for that but we did switch from cast iron and steel to Duraluminium to reduce reciprocating mass. I fully accept what you and others have posted regarding the physical properties but there is more to it than that. Because titanium is so light you can increase section size, this means it is the increased section that gives the stiffness not the material properties, same comment goes for adding bracing. Cycle frames in Al and Ti compared to Fe are a clear example of light larger sections. Ti and Al are the preferred material or aerospace despite being much more expensive than Fe. My info on Jeff Smith / BSA was based on an interview he gave many years ago, not a technical analysis. The BSA titanium frame despite being lighter and stiffer did not handle as well and was subject to cracking. dadof2, The point at which you start to restate my own comments back to me is the point at which we should conclude that there may be some things upon which we can agree. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dadof2 Posted December 12, 2014 Report Share Posted December 12, 2014 (edited) Thanks for that Neil. I feel It is difficult to discuss quite complex issues in brief posts, and it is the case that at first some may seem to have very opposite views when in fact there opinions are very similar. Look at the way Nigel "jumps on" bits of my posts, I give them as an example and he treats them as if they are the key exhibit in a murder trial. I am fully aware of the way Billy Bolt rides, one of my friends practices with him occasionally and at a section in the Scott this year he launched the bike out of his hands and up the bank into my sons legs, my son caught it to stop it tumbling back down the section over BB who was on his back. Atomant, I am not against new technology and I like working with electronics and up to date diagnostics. What I do like for my sport is reliable proven technology that meets my budget. At this time I believe the overall balance of advantage on a 2T trials bike is with carburation, not EFI. That is a judgement, not anti technology. I recently did some work on a "carburated" Suzuki "jeep". It had a downdraft carburettor but also a lambda controlled air inlet valve in an attempt to provide closed loop fuelling. What a pig to work on, give me EFI anytime compared to that set up. Also when it comes to trolling, I have had more success from the bank. Do I know more than Vertigo about EFI?, like I said I do not know but (based on over 35 years FI experience) I do know there are a lot of potential drawbacks with it and there are a lot of competent EFI technicians who will tell you EFI and water don't mix. Take the Honda EFI CBR600. A while ago I diagnosed one of these that would not consistently run right despite supposedly having been fixed by several dealers. The owner had dropped it and rather than replace the plastics turned it into a streetfighter. The problem was water ingress on the electrics when parked due to the removal of the plastics. Edited December 12, 2014 by dadof2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigel dabster Posted December 12, 2014 Report Share Posted December 12, 2014 Yes guilty as charged. Jump on the crap thats me. If you can see the way BB rides and is with his bikes then admit you may have been wrong to cite this example. Its this glib dismissal which totally undervalues any post? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyrothers Posted December 12, 2014 Report Share Posted December 12, 2014 Fi 'v' carb? Fi every time. I had a gsxr750 with fuel injection. In the end became an ornament in the garage and only got started once a year and ridden to the mot garage. Started straight on the button, no spluttering. Spot on every time. If I wanted to tinker then within 10 mins including booting up the laptop I could change the fuel map. Not because I needed to but because I could. Cleaning the carb on the trials bike is my least favourite job. I am now of the opinion if it runs ok then leave well alone and unless the bike is running rough then I leave well alone. I know that doesn't fit well with some but that's my choice. I would buy Fi trials bike without hesitation. I've seen bikes catch fire momentarily when the bikes on its side and fuel pours out of the overflow onto a hot exhaust. So back on topic, technology which enables reduced maintenance, better control of emissions and less chance of fuel spillage is a winner in my book. Evolution of product development will get the fuelling and rideability sorted and for me the attraction of the vertigo would be the ability to remap the bike to suit my requirements ie turning it down.... Life is structured around choice. If we don't like then we don't have to buy. But I like vertigo and based on what I have seen if I was in the market for a new bike I would buy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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