What Is The 'modern Position' That Some Twinshocks Are Mod'd For?

[iconic558]

A t/s rookie question, I keep seeing this reference to the 'more modern riding position'....is it simply lower footrests or are riders looking for more than that?

...for instance what is the more 'modern handlebar positioning'....where does the 'body' sit 'in' the bike etc.

...is it all just an aid to go from new to old t/s's or is the 'modern position' a better set-up period?

I've owned 4 trials bikes, 1980 Sherpa 250, 2003 Monty 315R, 2002 Beta REV and now my 1980 SWM if that helps someone to explain things..but never owned more than one at a time!

thanks for your patience guys

[b40rt]

Sent you a picture of "modern" swm.

[iconic558]

Thanks for that.....that looks like a late bike with the ali swing arm etc but running zokes on the front....with mudguard stay to suit?

Handlebars look low and footrests rear and down?

[b40rt]

83 frame, footrest as you say back and down. Brake pedal moved to allow swinging arm to drop for longer shocks. Paioli forks. Handlebars 6", just a funny angle.

[iconic558]

Moving footrests back and down is a common theme, what has changed since these bikes were designed ( by very bright people) to make moving the footrests beneficial?

[b40rt]

Conventional / perceived wisdom of the day, not necessarily accurate.

[bisby]

Some riders are coming from modern bikes to twinshocks and they feel they need a modern stance on the bike so they move the foot pegs back and lower then, they want it to steer quicker so alter the head angle.

But before they have got used to riding a twinshock they have lost sight of a twinshocks original appeal.

My view is to ride it as it is and get used to them then alter them if you want

Its there bike they can do what they want to there bike.

Stephen

[ask greeves]

I don't think the question should be 'what is the modern position', I seriously think the question should be 'is it really necessary' If you feel your missing out, then it's got to be a necessity to make the 'super trick' upto date mods. Suppose it's a bit like Levis jeans, you wouldn't want to be seen in brown couderoys.

[scot taco]

Does lowering and moving the footrest back change the steering much? I have a 1970 Ossa that I,ve lowered the pegs on a little.Just wondering if lowering them more and moving them back would help the front end not want to push or plow in a tight turn.

[bisby]

I think lowering the foot rests makes the bike feel more balanced and stable but the few bikes I have had a ride on that have had the head angle changed felt ok but wanted to tuck under on a tight turn on a camber, not what I would want.

But remember I ride an Ossa gripper which having a lot of rear suspension movement which changes the head angle on down hills compared to an uphill turn. Steve.

[woody]

Moving footrests back and down is a common theme, what has changed since these bikes were designed ( by very bright people) to make moving the footrests beneficial?

Back in the 70s, which was the most prolonged run of twinshocks the bikes had the footrests set high to keep them clear of snagging obstacles etc as the bikes didn't have a huge amount of ground clearance. The bikes were also ridden differently with virtually no use of the clutch, the bike was kept moving and the positioning of the footrests enabled the rider to move around a lot on the bike to weight it in turns, keep balance over obstacles etc But the biggest difference was the bars which were a much higher rise than today's bars. Therefore although the footrests were higher set, with the higher bars the riding position wasn't uncomfortable. I'm 6' 3" and never had any issues riding the bikes then.

Later twinshocks and aircooled monos carried on with the higher footrest position as ground clearance increased but the bars got lower meaning you were pitched over the front more. No idea if this was by design or they just never thought about it but the style of riding these bikes differed from the 70s era with more emphasis on stopping and balancing and hopping the bike around. It took up to the mid to late 90s before the footrests got lower as with the riding style still evolving into what it is today, the need for the rider to be more upright, rather than hunched over grew. There was also no longer the need for the bikes to have 13 - 14" of ground clearance as modern riders began to ride more on the back wheel, keeping the front light or in the air, so grounding the bikes wasn't so much of a problem, plus being a lot lighter than older bikes they slide over stuff easier.

So the modern stance is to stand in the bike as they are designed to be ridden in straight lines now (my opinion) with riders hopping them around turns (better riders that is...) rather than the old fashioned way of steering them with both wheels on the ground. Standing upright on the modern bikes is the best position for using the suspension to move the front and rear of the bike around. The old style was to move around a lot on the bike to lean the bike where necessary when riding a section and the higher rests and riding position made this easier. It's actually quite hard to ride a modern bike in that old style - for me anyway...

The problem with the earlier bikes now, if you are tall, is that with the high rests and low bars, they can be pretty uncomfortable to ride, depending on your height. 40 years on, I can't bend as well as I did at 15... so on all my bikes I've lowered the rests and fit the highest bars I can get which is only 6", compared to 8 or 9" from years ago.

I think just lowering the rests is the best compromise but some people set them further back too. Depends on the bike and how far but if they are too far back it can put more weight on the front as the rider is again pitched forward to reach the bars and this can negate the reason for moving them back in the first place, which is to get more weight on the rear for grip...

Steepening the head angle is another of those subjective matters. It is better in terms of stopping the front pushing in turns in theory because there should be more weight on the front. A GasGas is much more planted on a full lock tight turn on a slippery surface than my Bultaco for instance. But I've ridden a few twinshocks with altered steering and the results have been mixed. Some felt ok, some were ruined as the front pushed everywhere when on lock. It doesn't always improve the bike

Besides, today's classic trials are nowhere near as hard as a centre trial or national from the late 70s early 80s, so there isn't really any need

[iconic558]

Back in the 70s, which was the most prolonged run of twinshocks the bikes had the footrests set high to keep them clear of snagging obstacles etc as the bikes didn't have a huge amount of ground clearance. The bikes were also ridden differently with virtually no use of the clutch, the bike was kept moving and the positioning of the footrests enabled the rider to move around a lot on the bike to weight it in turns, keep balance over obstacles etc But the biggest difference was the bars which were a much higher rise than today's bars. Therefore although the footrests were higher set, with the higher bars the riding position wasn't uncomfortable. I'm 6' 3" and never had any issues riding the bikes then.

Later twinshocks and aircooled monos carried on with the higher footrest position as ground clearance increased but the bars got lower meaning you were pitched over the front more. No idea if this was by design or they just never thought about it but the style of riding these bikes differed from the 70s era with more emphasis on stopping and balancing and hopping the bike around. It took up to the mid to late 90s before the footrests got lower as with the riding style still evolving into what it is today, the need for the rider to be more upright, rather than hunched over grew. There was also no longer the need for the bikes to have 13 - 14" of ground clearance as modern riders began to ride more on the back wheel, keeping the front light or in the air, so grounding the bikes wasn't so much of a problem, plus being a lot lighter than older bikes they slide over stuff easier.

So the modern stance is to stand in the bike as they are designed to be ridden in straight lines now (my opinion) with riders hopping them around turns (better riders that is...) rather than the old fashioned way of steering them with both wheels on the ground. Standing upright on the modern bikes is the best position for using the suspension to move the front and rear of the bike around. The old style was to move around a lot on the bike to lean the bike where necessary when riding a section and the higher rests and riding position made this easier. It's actually quite hard to ride a modern bike in that old style - for me anyway...

The problem with the earlier bikes now, if you are tall, is that with the high rests and low bars, they can be pretty uncomfortable to ride, depending on your height. 40 years on, I can't bend as well as I did at 15... so on all my bikes I've lowered the rests and fit the highest bars I can get which is only 6", compared to 8 or 9" from years ago.

I think just lowering the rests is the best compromise but some people set them further back too. Depends on the bike and how far but if they are too far back it can put more weight on the front as the rider is again pitched forward to reach the bars and this can negate the reason for moving them back in the first place, which is to get more weight on the rear for grip...

Steepening the head angle is another of those subjective matters. It is better in terms of stopping the front pushing in turns in theory because there should be more weight on the front. A GasGas is much more planted on a full lock tight turn on a slippery surface than my Bultaco for instance. But I've ridden a few twinshocks with altered steering and the results have been mixed. Some felt ok, some were ruined as the front pushed everywhere when on lock. It doesn't always improve the bike

Besides, today's classic trials are nowhere near as hard as a centre trial or national from the late 70s early 80s, so there isn't really any need

Many thanks Woody...if Carlsberg were into twinshock questions... Edited November 26, 2014 by iconic558

[ask greeves]

It will be noted, that even at the end of the twin shock era, the width of the foot rests (fore and aft) was approx 1inch. Modern footrests are a lot wider. So maybe without even really realising the solution, the 'sweet' answer maybe found. These wider footrests natrually, by design, help the riders weight bias..hope this makes sense. Or without moving the position of the footrests, the rear of say a 3inch wide foot rests are 1 inch further back an the front 1 inch further forward, rider imput uphill, would tend towards the front of the footrest and towards the rear for gaining traction.

Edited November 26, 2014 by ask greeves

[b40rt]

It will be noted, that even at the end of the twin shock era, the width of the foot rests (fore and aft) was approx 1inch. Modern footrests are a lot wider. So maybe without even really realising the solution, the 'sweet' answer maybe found. These wider footrests natrually, by design, help the riders weight bias..hope this makes sense. Or without moving the position of the footrests, the rear of say a 3inch wide foot rests are 1 inch further back an the front 1 inch further forward, rider imput uphill, would tend towards the front of the footrest and towards the rear for gaining traction.

With wider footrest you also get a greater degree of leverage, on small rests your foot could only pivot.

I personally have "modernised" the position for comfort, wouldn't be surprised if the centre of gravity is much the same for a smaller rider in the original position, versus a taller rider in more modern position.

[feetupfun]

another consideration regarding the lowering of footpegs is that most of the older twinshocks have quite high seats/rear frame/mudguard relative to the footpegs, and if the footpegs are lowered on them it can greatly limit body weighting in the up and down plane unless the rider has long legs. I am 174cm or 5' 10" with proportionate leg length and found that after I lowered the pegs on a TY250B to level with the bottom of the bashplate, I was often hitting my tailbone on the rear guard and seat when jumping across big obstacles.