feetupfun Posted December 11, 2014 Report Share Posted December 11, 2014 I'm with the NO vote and here's one reason why bigger bhp isn't always better https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjFeC7g6_40 quite amusing, but I'm pretty sure that was no standard Harley motor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dadof2 Posted December 11, 2014 Author Report Share Posted December 11, 2014 I have seen that video before but I bet if I'd posted than an old HD could out accelerate a CBR1000 I would have taken some stick. I can remember Cal Rayborn out accelerating quite a number of more powerful bikes out of Mallory Park hairpin in the early 1970s Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pat_56 Posted December 12, 2014 Report Share Posted December 12, 2014 quite amusing, but I'm pretty sure that was no standard Harley motor I'm pretty sure that the old guy was a sly-er rider and picks up a little beer money with that trick, short run against a kid that's scared of his own bike. Still got to tip the hat to someone who can make one of those old thrashers run that good down the road 3 times and back without grenading, I mean, that's not a new evolution engine by any means, probably barely cracked 40+ hp stock. (Granted it's probably not stock) but I would have to see the Dyno numbers to believe that the Rat bike has more torque than the CBR1000rr so this doesn't solve the torque issue, a new Sporster makes 70.8 lb/ft of torque and my 900 ninja makes 74.5 (stock), that Honda would have more torque than mine. So torque alone doesn't tell the whole story either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pat_56 Posted December 12, 2014 Report Share Posted December 12, 2014 Some folk would buy a 500 if they made one. Have to say no. However just bought a tuned 300 Ossa that will pull away in 5th without slipping the clutch blows my credibility. I used to have a well modified CR480R (actually about 520 cc big bore kit, reeds, pipe) two stroke, it was much easier to ride than it's contemporary 250's because there were no surprises - instant power any time any gear any RPM. Pick a gear, dial in desired measure of power, point, hang on, smile. The dirty sneaky 250's on the other hand, sucks you in with smooth wonderful serge of power lifts the wheel nicely then dumps everything it's got right in your face. Happily getting off my bigger more powerful bike to swap rides on two occasions with CR250r's and once on a YZ250. All three peeked a midst of what I thought was a "Controlled" wheelie delivering more fun than I had bargained for. I definitely found the higher power easier to ride in those cases. I can't think of any occasion that I have felt something was overpowered - and I would like to set the record absolutely straight that I am by no means a talented driver of anything, comfortable novice at best. Which brings me to a question that has been puzzling me. Checking the specs of trials bikes ranging from 200 to 300cc, I see that the dimensions are virtually identical but for the engine size and maybe an extra pound. Even the price is within a couple hundred bucks. So other than for competition displacement class why would any one not get the biggest offering? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lineaway Posted December 12, 2014 Report Share Posted December 12, 2014 A bigger bike can be more fun to ride, but a smaller engine is easier to control. If you actually compete, the less power can mean a better score. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
totty79 Posted December 12, 2014 Report Share Posted December 12, 2014 Wheelbase and weight distribution have a big impact on acceleration from a standing start. I had a 90 VFR750 that was particularly quick off a standing start, much quicker than my current CB1300 which has a big torque advantage and maybe 15% higher bhp. On a trials bike I think power delivery is more important than quantity. Many 250 are much lower compression than the equivalent 300. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dadof2 Posted December 12, 2014 Author Report Share Posted December 12, 2014 Pat #20. Interesting comments those and exactly the same as my experience. I used to race a CR500, blueprinted and slightly tuned engine with Schlecten works pipe. Could steer and slide it on the throttle with as you say no nasty surprises. I could also ride a 125 pretty well, just wind it on all the time. 250s on the other hand were tricky beasts, not much go then you wanted it then all of a sudden in comes the power. The only way I could ride a 250 was in a gear lower than it really should have been and rev the ar?e of the fu??er. I reckon the reason Hildo beats the CBR is because on the HD he can pretty well dump the clutch and wind on the throttle whereas on the CBR it is much more difficult to keep the revs and clutch bite well matched. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pat_56 Posted December 13, 2014 Report Share Posted December 13, 2014 dadof2 Yes, that old rat bike would be easy to launch just bang it and ride it out. A big sport bike is hard to launch well, if I start my bike spinning you cold hold it back with a finger, good grip and too much throttle and it will try to punch you in the face with the handle bars. The right rider on any relatively current liter sport bike, would dust the old rat bike in a heart beat no matter who was riding it.... But a capable rider probably wouldn't get involved, it would be a pitiful win with no bragging rights. About four years ago I was cruising on the 4 lane when I noticed a bike several cars behind spotted me, his reactions clearly displayed an obvious light came on in his head and he came rapidly up behind me, when beside me I identified it as a white, early 70's Norton 850 Commando - rider laying tight on the tank and right wrist rolled so hard under it looked like it was on the second twist around! I sped up a little to get a look and an ear at the bike, he was doing about 100 mph, jean jacket flapping, work gloves, sneakers, very old sparkly red open face helmet. I became rather concerned for the guys safety and eased off so as not to encourage his pursuit. After getting a few cars ahead of me he also rejoined the regular pace of traffic. I don't know if the guy thought he had a chance, was joking, trying, playing or just wanted to entice me to put on a show for him. If he went on to brag of victory, that's just fine too. I only hope that tonight where ever they are; The old iron horse is under cover ready for spring, rider is warm, well, enjoying the recollection of many fine ride and anticipation of many more to come. If we had pushed his old bike into a tank slapping head shake it would not have been a good day or memory for either of us and I would rather think we shared a bit motorcycle camaraderie than to spew an empty boast that "I showed him a thing or two" 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrmad Posted December 14, 2014 Report Share Posted December 14, 2014 Personally I think smaller bikes are more fun to ride, I had more of a blast on my 125 than I now do on my 500. It's more fun to go flat out on a small bike than be timid with a higher capacity machine. I can see the pros of a 300 for an expert/ someone who knows what they are doing. But you learn technique better with a smaller bike on and off road. The new Jotagas has got a lot of power, but as others have said it depends on how it rides. Manufacturers will probably continue to make more powerful bikes and people will buy them. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ric h Posted December 14, 2014 Report Share Posted December 14, 2014 Love my 2011 Ossa 280.This winter it's getting a full makeover with powdercoat frame and 2014 graphics.While the motor is out,i'm going to put a 2nd base gasket in it.I have never used the power it has and it'll be easier to kick thru with the lower compression I hope. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pat_56 Posted December 14, 2014 Report Share Posted December 14, 2014 Personally I think smaller bikes are more fun to ride, I had more of a blast on my 125 than I now do on my 500. It's more fun to go flat out on a small bike than be timid with a higher capacity machine. I can see the pros of a 300 for an expert/ someone who knows what they are doing. But you learn technique better with a smaller bike on and off road. The new Jotagas has got a lot of power, but as others have said it depends on how it rides. Manufacturers will probably continue to make more powerful bikes and people will buy them. All things in consideration, trials bikes in my area are so rare that I will end up with what ever works good enough and is close enough when or if I have the money. I have so much to learn that my 1st bike will either be my favorite forever or it will enlighten me as to what to look for in my next bike. I think there would be a lot to say for the psychological factor in participating in events on a bike of somewhat humble linage, than to show up on a set of Boss wheels and ride it like a knob. I am definitely placing higher consideration on a 200 now than I was before participating in this conversation - thank you for that. Also, as I understand that there is a Beta 200 demonstrator around that may well be my best access to try out a modern style bike. As I reflect, after all my 900 ninja is by no means my 1st bike - it is about my 30th and certainly would not have been a good 1st bike (well, so there wasn't such a bike 40 years ago when I got my license). I am sure there will be opportunity to sample other rides when I get to an event or two. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
axulsuv Posted December 14, 2014 Report Share Posted December 14, 2014 About a year ago I had a yamaha crotch rocket roll into the shop I was working part time at on the weekends , with the complaint of a lack of power ... I took the bike for a test ride and came back into the shop confused ... , The resident Harley guru chuckled and grinned , then asked if it dislocated my shoulders in a 50 mph wfo run ? I said no , but the bike sure isn't slow by anymeans ... After a bit of testing I pulled the tank , replaced the fuel pump and filter and thru a new set of plugs in it just because and then went for another test ride . IT blew my mind what about a 10psi change in fuel pressure made on that efi bike with variable valve train or intake runners (whatever yamaha calls their intake system ) It spooled up so quick from a stop to be almost dangerous , but at speed it would hit it's powerband and want to launch skyward ... I think that must be why all the "cool" biker guys around here now tend to destroy their crotch rockets now by lengthening the swingarm by a foot or more and adding huge width back tires ... They don't handle worth a $hit anymore , but the no talent types can accelerate them ... I'd take my old RD350 again any day over some of the new stuff... Back in the day when the Kawi 900's first came out , it was still the stoplight to stoplight king and it handled better too ... Glenn 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
telecat Posted December 14, 2014 Report Share Posted December 14, 2014 http://www.reddit.com/r/cars/comments/154dix/torque_and_horsepower_explainedfor_semiidiots 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
axulsuv Posted December 14, 2014 Report Share Posted December 14, 2014 http://www.reddit.com/r/cars/comments/154dix/torque_and_horsepower_explainedfor_semiidiots Excellent !!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pat_56 Posted December 14, 2014 Report Share Posted December 14, 2014 http://www.reddit.com/r/cars/comments/154dix/torque_and_horsepower_explainedfor_semiidiots That is the best explanation I have ever heard of horse power vs torque! The 1/4 mile statistics on a 600cc rocket are astoundingly close to my 900cc (10.16 for my 900 vs about 10.80 for a modern 600cc). However, for day use you can whack the 600cc wide open at 5000 rpm and feel no more pull than any family sedan beside you, at 6000 rpm the fuse is lit and the fun starts. On my 900, if you crack the throttle at 2000 rpm in 1st, say hello to a world full of things are about to happen and happen now! I reasoned that although capable of more than I am prepared to utilize on a daily basis, if I got a 600 I would end up driving overall harder and faster looking for a little rush. With the bigger bike I can roll on part throttle in the first couple gears and generate enough pull to put a grin on my face and a knot in my stomach just getting up to speed and never pass 6000 rpm. Instant gratification. The 900 red line is 12000 rpm. A current 600 may rev to 15000 rpm or higher. axulsuv FYI, if the Yamaha Rocket you tested was an R1 (1000cc) if it was from 2005 up, is sharply more intense than my Ninja (2003, last year for a 900cc performance Kawasaki). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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