sherpa325 Posted January 2, 2015 Report Share Posted January 2, 2015 Bou won both days and Fuji got 4th and 3rd so I'd assume Honda had some idea of what they were doing. Setting up a bike hardly qualifies as an incident.I didn't say it was an incident, just pointing out what happened. Fuji spent more time with the laptop than Bou and I saw him foul plug on the Saturday during the event.The factory Hondas also had a lower idle in my opinion so I would assume they have a better system than on the production bike. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atomant Posted January 2, 2015 Report Share Posted January 2, 2015 (edited) Atomant #87 - why bother to read it and post if its painful? Firstly, I picked this thread up just recently so I read it from front to back in all one go... Big mistake ! I am just trying to see how all this has any relevance to your initial post on EFI where you stated it was too expensive and shouldn't be on a trials bike ! The experience with people who have actually owned a 4RT or an OSSA, is that FI has been a successful innovation.. but saying that, people are obviously happy discussing this so C'est la vie ! For me, I just remembered a wall I painted in 2013 and I'm not sure the paint has dried.. so I better go watch it ! Edited January 2, 2015 by atomant 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dadof2 Posted January 4, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 4, 2015 (edited) #91 My comment hardly justifies your use of the word police. I asked the question because I wondered if atomant was showing early symptoms of "Mary Whitehouse syndrome" Back to EFI see the following (caution its a long read) http://www.remmington.info/advice.htm. This pretty well outlines one of my objections to EFI, the lack of compatibility and expense of diagnostics equipment. I am aware of a couple of car EFI problems at the moment. In one case the manufacturer never sold the diagnostics equipment, it was leased to main dealers at significant cost (circa £6,000 per year in about 2010). Most main dealers no longer have regular need for this diagnostics so no longer pay for it. This means anyone with the affected model of car has to travel a long distance (well over 120 miles from my area) and pay £70+ per hour for what should be a 5 minutes diagnostic job. On another vehicle which is supposed to be OBDII compliant, 2 OBDII DTC scanners have so far failed to communicate with the system. These are the sort of unfortunate experiences that lay in wait for owners of EFI trials bikes when they go wrong, which they eventually will. Perhaps it will be the case that EFI trials bikes should be regarded as disposable goods, you expect a few years reliable use then at the first instance of an expensive repair you bin them like a washing machine or break them and sell the good bits for what you can on Ebay. Take a look at CCMCC new years day results, won by a twinshock suzuki, do trials need high tech? EFI trials bike so far only measure air pressure, which means they can adjust to suit changes in pressure due to weather and altitude. They do not however have MAF sensors which mean they cannot adjust for changes in humidity or air filter resistance both of which are significant factors in trials bike fuelling. Edited January 4, 2015 by dadof2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guys Posted January 4, 2015 Report Share Posted January 4, 2015 These are the sort of unfortunate experiences that lay in wait for owners of EFI trials bikes when they go wrong, which they eventually will. The 4RT is almost 10 years on the market now, how long do we have to wait so you can say "I told you so"? They do not however have MAF sensors which mean they cannot adjust for changes in humidity or air filter resistance both of which are significant factors in trials bike fuelling. Which average rider does this adjustment? Even on a carburetor bike?Nobody I know anyway. I clean my air filter in time instead, much easier. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0007 Posted January 4, 2015 Report Share Posted January 4, 2015 (edited) Well I give up, I think it's nuts to say that the carburetor is the best we can come up with, I think carb tech has peaked and its not good enough for tomorrow I'm of the opinion that new tech will happen because it has to, it's called progress points went away and old timers didn't trust "the black box", I bet they poo poo'd the idea of a single shock, the idea of wearing a helmet and pretty much every other advancement mankind has made If EFI and or direct injection has made every other gas engine vehicle then it will make trials bikes better too Lead, Follow or Go enjoy a retro twin shock bike and don't let your opinions hold back developement, some of us like it Edited January 4, 2015 by 0007 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigel dabster Posted January 4, 2015 Report Share Posted January 4, 2015 Well I give up, I think it's nuts to say that the carburetor is the best we can come up with, I think carb tech has peaked and its not good enough for tomorrow I'm of the opinion that new tech will happen because it has to, it's called progress points went away and old timers didn't trust "the black box", I bet they poo poo'd the idea of a single shock, the idea of wearing a helmet and pretty much every other advancement mankind has made If EFI and or direct injection has made every other gas engine vehicle then it will make trials bikes better too Lead, Follow or Go enjoy a retro twin shock bike and don't let your opinions hold back developement, some of us like it Much more patience than most Matt! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
breagh Posted January 4, 2015 Report Share Posted January 4, 2015 Things haven't changed that much?. My father who rode in the 50s/60s replaced the shocks on his Francis Barnett with solid rods.. This was after experts told him sprung frames were no good in finding grip. Sounds strangely familiar, 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dadof2 Posted January 6, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 6, 2015 (edited) #99 "I told you so, I would have more sympathy than use this comment to a 4RT owner who had the misfortune to have EFI failure, I reserve the use of that phrase for owners of a marque well known to be prone to gearbox failure Honda EFI does seem to be pretty reliable, but its a very simplified form of EFI and compact. Honda electrics are probably about the best in the industry but they still go wrong and can be horrendously expensive. I presently have six hondas (not trials bikes) dating back to 1978 and none has ever needed an electric part, But on the other hand I have owned other hondas and have HT coil and regulator failure within a few months of new. In any case to make a 4T competitive it probably has to be EFI. To avoid poor pick up just off tickover carbs have to be too small bore to allow the engine to rev properly or they have to be CV which don't work consistently when subjected to up and down movement. They may mostly be able to cope with club trials and easier national sections, but subject a CV carb to arena X trials or some WTC type sections and very variable running will result. Adjusting for clogged air filter and humidity. One of the key advantages of EFI should be its ability to self adjust for variations in input parameters. If it is incapable of doing this it removes one of the main potential advantages over a carb. A clogged filter does not have to be due to lack of maintenance, it can occur in the middle of a trial a long way from back up. Possibly this is why Ossa has made the effort to have a pretty good filter that is not prone to getting dirty or wet. The $10 tool. I note the article says "you do this at your own risk" It is all to easy to trash an ECU doing this sort of thing, carbs are far more robust and cheaper to fix if it does go wrong. A significant improvement to 2T running, engine wear rates and emissions reductions (possibly greater improvement than EFI with premix) could be given by using a pump to provide engine lubrication and running on straight gasoline but when Yam did this people removed or disconnected the pump and resorted to premix with its drawbacks. An oil pump would also be much cheaper than EFI. Edited January 6, 2015 by dadof2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mags Posted January 6, 2015 Report Share Posted January 6, 2015 I see Bou had a bad result (again) with that pesky fuel injection.... Mags Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
copemech Posted January 6, 2015 Report Share Posted January 6, 2015 I see Bou had a bad result (again) with that pesky fuel injection.... Mags Dose he still have a crew of japs that follow him around with the laptop to change his mapping for the section via Bluetooth? Simple, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveo Posted January 6, 2015 Report Share Posted January 6, 2015 Mark, those guys are just a ploy to p*** off the other riders, after all, he needs all the help he can get. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baldilocks Posted January 6, 2015 Report Share Posted January 6, 2015 I can't understand how copey and dadof ever let go of the simple yet reliable chisel and slate method of communication but i wish they hadn't. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kramit Posted January 6, 2015 Report Share Posted January 6, 2015 I can't understand how copey and dadof ever let go of the simple yet reliable chisel and slate method of communication but i wish they hadn't. I think D of 2 and Copley have seen the worst of problems with FI and are speaking from experience. Its the folks who don't know any better who have other views. On a Trials bike anyway,...FI seems to cure a problem that never existed. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baldilocks Posted January 6, 2015 Report Share Posted January 6, 2015 Copey and dadoff are quoting problems not related to trials, as i asked originally how many TRIALS bikes have had FI components fail ? Carbs do leak fuel, not helpful from the environmental point of view. Carbs do wear out and do require different jets and slides etc for different conditions. Nobody gives a 4rt a quick blip only for it to cough and stall. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the addict Posted January 6, 2015 Report Share Posted January 6, 2015 I've had 6 years on 4rt's, no fails in that time, the occasional cough up a big step but nothing off putting even. As I've said earlier, it is so nice getting a trials bike out of the van in any type of weather condition and more importantly any air pressure variations and have that bike run the same every time without the need for carburettor adjustments. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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