guys Posted February 2, 2015 Report Share Posted February 2, 2015 I'm not suggesting you should dismantle and grease the link bearings after every race but every few months depending on how intensive you use your bike. A complete water or dust tight dynamic (moving) seal does not exist so regular cleaning and regreasing prolongs the bearing life. And what in gods name do you or your learnered(?) friend, mean by "braking" the seal? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hannu Posted February 2, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 2, 2015 I'm not suggesting you should dismantle and grease the link bearings after every race but every few months depending on how intensive you use your bike. A complete water or dust tight dynamic (moving) seal does not exist so regular cleaning and regreasing prolongs the bearing life. And what in gods name do you or your learnered(?) friend, mean by "braking" the seal? Ha ha yes when you remove the collar from the seal you move / break the original seal seating, ie the seal will seat into the collar. and yes I don't disagree with you regarding the re-lubricating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mags Posted February 2, 2015 Report Share Posted February 2, 2015 (edited) Technically you do stretch the bolts but... The cyclic load and number of cycles to destruction from a stress riser or exceeding the elastic limit of the thread by way of undoing and doing up a fastner, to its specified torque with specified coating or non coating as the case may be, FAR exceeds the number of times you will remove and refit the faster for maintenance. If you dont use a torque wrench and Gorilla it... thats another matter! The nuts are captive so little chance of it coming off if under torqued. The load is in shear not compression so it may loosen if under torqued but the nut should stay put. Inspection is the key. The main issue I see with the all the needles rollers in that area is water ingress. To that end I'd use a water proof bearing grease along the lines of multi-purpose marine trailer bearing grease or similar. And fill the cavity... If I was riding water courses it would be inspected, cleaned and reassembled more often than my 30 hrs or so. Mags Edited February 2, 2015 by mags 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mags Posted February 2, 2015 Report Share Posted February 2, 2015 Hey mags if that was my bike it would be back at the shop now considdering where you live .It's not on ! G'day Ted, Very few if any of my motorcycles have ever been back to a shop after the first service. I dont trust what I call "the hammer, screwdriver and silicone" guys that work on my pride and joys but their job number 47 for the day. I currently have 5 that didn't even go for the first service. One will go to have a recall completed though. Mags 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mags Posted February 3, 2015 Report Share Posted February 3, 2015 Monty rear end all done and back together... head stem next! Mags Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shyted Posted February 3, 2015 Report Share Posted February 3, 2015 Hope this works. Dear Mr. Clarck, Thank you for contacting Honda UK. We are sorry to learn about your experience with your new Honda bike. You can contact us by replying to this email and we will take your matter further on your behalf. Please provide us with the reg. plate and VIN of your vehicle, dealerships involved and approximate mileage on the vehicle and some more details about the situation. After receiving your complaint, our Customer Relations team in Bracknell will give you an answer within three business days. Thank you for contacting Honda. If we can be of any further assistance, please do not hesitate to contact us. Kind Regards, Nadezhda Stoeva Honda Customer Service 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jj65 Posted February 3, 2015 Report Share Posted February 3, 2015 Who told you theres no warranty, you get 6 months parts warranty, so the dealer would have sent you the part FOC. If the bearing is missing. The seals can only keep out a certain amount of cr*p, so it's good practice to strip, clean and lubricate on a regular basis, on any trials bike. It would appear you have been very unlucky with your bike, but it's not the norm on a mont in my experience and I've had a fair few of them. To be honest, the first thing I do when I get a new bike, is strip it, remove all the unnecessary bits and check and lub everything. Yes, it's a day wasted in the garage, but it's piece of mind and you'll benefit from it in the future. I have had 3 new 4rts and I'm pretty sur I was told they came with a 6 months parts warranty. Anyway, due to the comment on this thread about them not having a warranty, I thought I'd check with Honda UK and here's the response I got today: Thank you for contacting Honda UK. We would like to confirm that the Cota do not come with manufacturers warranty as they have been designed and constructed for racing purposes. However, Honda gives warranty for the other off road models which is 3 months for the XR series and CRF series up to 125cc and 6 months for the CRF series above 125cc. Should you need further help, please let us know. Kind Regards, Nadezhda Stoeva Honda Customer Service Now I know I'm not the sharpest tool in the box, but, im sure they had one, so maybe it's a new thing. surely, if an mx bike that is ridden a lot harder, can get a 6 month warranty, then why can't a trials bike get one too?!!! I thought that was why Honda UK insisted only franchised Honda dealers could sell them. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shyted Posted February 4, 2015 Report Share Posted February 4, 2015 (edited) Oh well you can be sure i will get a response like that when i get to them ( i'm at sea just now) and if i do they will get an extremeley large rocket up the bum because i'm not being palmed off with an excuse . JJ65 Give e'm hell Doesn't this just show what buying quallity gets you ! So don't stop giving them hassle untill they cave in . An email is all it takes . Edited February 4, 2015 by shyted 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guys Posted February 4, 2015 Report Share Posted February 4, 2015 POWER TO THE PEOPLE ! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hannu Posted February 4, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 4, 2015 Well managed to get the old bearings and seals out tonight :- Img 20 is the long collar left side Img 22 is the opposite, right side Img 24 & 27 is the collar removed, Quite obvious water has contaminated the left side and that the bearing has not been running on this side at any stage of the bikes life. Img 32 & 31 bearings in situ with collar removed Img 41 bearings and seals in order long collar side on left, Img 43 note damage to seal inner side Img 45 as 43 but also note how dark the needle rollers are compared to the right side Img 48 please note the damage on the left bearing seal side compared with right side Img 49 & 50 lost the will img speak for themselves Now I know some of you will say Ah you have tried to pry the seal out with a driver from the left side hence the damage ! NO absolutely not the bearing and seals were pushed out from the right side to the left using threaded bar correct side drift washer and hollow tube to push the bearings into. Therefore damaged seal out first. Look to me very much like the left bearing has been pushed hammered or pressed in with the seal damaging both seal at bearing. the bearing outer face has been squashed in preventing the needles from turning and due to the damaged seal water has got in to corroded the shaft. Just look how clean the right side is !!!!. Sorry but whilst doing this tonight I was thinking that the bike isn't yet a year old yet has been off the "track " and I have missed more trials than the years I had my 2010 Sherco. Dam you Montesa and why don't Sherco do a 4 stroke I'll charm down tomorrow. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hannu Posted February 4, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 4, 2015 In answer to my own question 4RT Quality NO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrsunt Posted February 4, 2015 Report Share Posted February 4, 2015 (edited) They've got to hold their hands up to that one. Never seen that on 11 years worth of monts. I've always wondered why manufacturers continue using needle rollers in the linkage as there is so little movement for them. Would spherical bearings work better? Edited February 4, 2015 by jrsunt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dadof2 Posted February 5, 2015 Report Share Posted February 5, 2015 Needle rollers are much lower friction / stiction. If all linkage bearings were spherical suspension would be nothing like as plush. I generally run a new bike in then strip, clean and grease all the chassis bearings If I pressure wash (very rare) the bearing area or if bike has been in deep water I strip, clean and regrease Normally I service bearings about every 3 to 4 months. I find on many bikes the dog bone bearings nearest the rear wheel need more frequently greasing than the others and swinging arm bearings. Regarding warranty in the UK The sale of goods act (1974) states "Goods must be or merchantable quality and fit for the purpose for which they are sold". That applies to new and used. Trials bike manufacturers practice of restricting warranty because they are competition bikes would not always stand up in law unless they could prove on the balance of probability that the purchaser was responsible. I can remember one well known motorcycle dealer / engineer (who no longer deals in motorcycles). He probably made a slight mistake on reboring a 2T racing engine. The engine seized during running in and the rider was thrown off and injured. Not only did the dealer have to correct the bike, he had to pay the rider substantial damages for injury. A person I knew bought a Montesa Cappra 414 which was 2 or 3 years old. He did about 90 minutes practice then took it to MX meeting with a longish straight. The engine blew up. The dealer initially refused to accept any responsibility. I checked the bike over and in addition to the piston being well worn out (near certain cause of blowup) the gearbox oil and air filter were filthy, the brake shoes were worn out and the brake cables and linkages faulty. I did a report for the owner and he took it to trading standards. After just one phone call from trading standards the dealer paid full cost of engine rebuild and 50% of other parts. At the time I was not even qualified to comment on engine condition, but I was insurance company approved to asses the feasibility and cost of repairs to aluminium chassis components. I would think it would be of considerable concern to Honda if they started getting reports of poor Montesa quality. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shyted Posted February 5, 2015 Report Share Posted February 5, 2015 S.E Lucas, don't think anything bad at all . Let me put thing's into focus of what i'm saying. The people you buy your bike from new are a representative of the company ,an authorised dealer .They are Honda or whoever. Honda don't sell a Civic type 'R' with no bearing grease in . I don't think for one minute that a Honda franchise assembles every linkage,in fact i know they don't as i used to work at Bill Head's in Preston for a short time. Why then ,when we are their life line (exagerated there a bit) should we accept ,when paying for quallity,down right shoddy workmanship ? I know one thing , If you don't say anything and suck it up ,it's just daft. Why should we let it go on ? Dadof that last sentance say's ton's. SO SAY SOMETHING ! Send pictures,send a link to this thread , Like i said before,if they spent more on getting the basics right instead of technology ,then the tec stuff would be all the better for it . If that make's sense . 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mags Posted February 5, 2015 Report Share Posted February 5, 2015 (edited) I think the Cota is not quite getting a fair wrap here. Let's see if my experience has me questioning the 4RT quality? Our Beta 2014 250 4T... Oil filter cover bolts pulled threads on first removal because of off-centre drilling on the 3 bolts that hold the cover on. I machined the holes to centre and backed torque down and race wire the bolts every oil change. Eventually will replace side cover or time-sert threads. Front brake stays on... removed, checked and refitted master cyl and not at cause yet. Caliper next to be stripped. Rubber carby manifold split and had to be replaced. Top end so noisy I had to check valve clearances immediately they were WAY out. Radiator fan stopped running and I finally traced it to loose terminal in plug in main wiring terminal plate. Still have to do the Beta clutch fix by blueprinting plates. One thread in frame holding plastics on was inserted cocked and has damaged thread so will insert time-sert when it fails. Side stand is designed poorly and was bending just with bike weight. Remove and weld in strengthening plates, repaint and refit. The Monty kick start lever hits the footpeg sometimes when starting. I installed a stainless tube over foot area to stop marks in lever end. My Montesa Cota 2014 has not had ANY other issues that I can recall... so much better quality than the Beta, period! So if people are questioning the Cota quality people must be throwing the Beta 4T off cliffs for free.... Mags Edited February 5, 2015 by mags 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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