steve fracy Posted June 25, 2015 Report Share Posted June 25, 2015 I have been to all provinces in Canada but yours fairly recently. We know who the best riders are....... perhaps I am slow, and not sure in your link where it tells anyone who actually pays for the FREE INSURANCE. The WTC has its own Championship, no argument. It IS NOT our National Championship. Please provide other instances where countrys have a National Championship not recognized by the FIM and promoted as a National Championship?. The manufacturers also work with and recognize these official championships. By your logic, I would hold a World Championship here in Canada, over two days, whatever riders show up, the winner would now be the New World Champion. Yet you wouldn't see any problem with that?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
biffsgasgas Posted June 25, 2015 Report Share Posted June 25, 2015 I don't think that Micheal_t has a unique logic to himself and i agree with his logic in some respects. Steve what do you think the WTC organization should do then? Just go away and not promote the sport? Change their name? Whats the solution? What is the impact of the WTC to your organization? --Biff 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael_t Posted June 25, 2015 Report Share Posted June 25, 2015 (edited) Hmmm... I have traveled much of this little Province I live in and am pretty sure the best riders don't even ride in events, so not sure how it is possible for you to know exactly who the best rider in the whole country is at any given point in time. The WEC and therefore the WTC receives funding from MMC. Do you want to know who signed the cheque from MMC to the WEC or who signed the cheque to Oasis (their insurance company). My assumption would me Mark? at MMC and Sean at WEC and Ken at Oasis would have cashed it. Last time I wrote a cheque to Oasis it was about $1,500 for the year for $5M in liability allowing our local organization to put on as many events as we like I could have used the WTC policy instead as it is the same but needed coverage for things other than just trials. BTW If you want to put on a timed events it is another $600 or so per event (so we leave our stop watches at home for trials events). Pretty good deal when it cost me $900 a year to insure my son to drive a car on the road. When you say "our" national championship I am assuming you mean CMAs as that is who you are speaking for. I did provide 2 examples I realize they are MX championships but since FIM is for all motorcycle sports I believe they are relevant. I should also note that none of these national championship actually lead to the selection of Trial des Nations teams it is actually the teams and riders that get together to decide who will go... winning the AMA motocross championship (American national championship not affiliated with FIM) does not give you an automatic place on the team (but it does improve your chances ). You can call an event just about anything you like - but you cannot call it a CMA or FIM sanctioned event unless you pay CMA or FIM for the right to do so... and I am okay with that. I actually had a burger at a place that said they had the "worlds best" burgers, I am not sure if it was really the "worlds best" but I didn't start a big protest over it as I felt it would be silly to do so. It did actually fill me up and that was all I really expected it to do... so I was happy (per usual) . So I guess to answer your question I would be fine with it but pretty sure anybody who knows trials would realize Toni is still the FIM World Champion and it doesn't look like anybody will take that from him anytime soon. Hope that answers all you questions for today... I have some riding to do . Cheers, Edited June 25, 2015 by michael_t Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael_t Posted June 25, 2015 Report Share Posted June 25, 2015 Hey Biff, I understand if you don't agree with my logic around looking silly... just passing on what I have been told . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve fracy Posted June 26, 2015 Report Share Posted June 26, 2015 Hmmm... I have traveled much of this little Province I live in and am pretty sure the best riders don't even ride in events, so not sure how it is possible for you to know exactly who the best rider in the whole country is at any given point in time. The WEC and therefore the WTC receives funding from MMC. Do you want to know who signed the cheque from MMC to the WEC or who signed the cheque to Oasis (their insurance company). My assumption would me Mark? at MMC and Sean at WEC and Ken at Oasis would have cashed it. Last time I wrote a cheque to Oasis it was about $1,500 for the year for $5M in liability allowing our local organization to put on as many events as we like I could have used the WTC policy instead as it is the same but needed coverage for things other than just trials. BTW If you want to put on a timed events it is another $600 or so per event (so we leave our stop watches at home for trials events). Pretty good deal when it cost me $900 a year to insure my son to drive a car on the road. When you say "our" national championship I am assuming you mean CMAs as that is who you are speaking for. I did provide 2 examples I realize they are MX championships but since FIM is for all motorcycle sports I believe they are relevant. I should also note that none of these national championship actually lead to the selection of Trial des Nations teams it is actually the teams and riders that get together to decide who will go... winning the AMA motocross championship (American national championship not affiliated with FIM) does not give you an automatic place on the team (but it does improve your chances ). You can call an event just about anything you like - but you cannot call it a CMA or FIM sanctioned event unless you pay CMA or FIM for the right to do so... and I am okay with that. I actually had a burger at a place that said they had the "worlds best" burgers, I am not sure if it was really the "worlds best" but I didn't start a big protest over it as I felt it would be silly to do so. It did actually fill me up and that was all I really expected it to do... so I was happy (per usual) . So I guess to answer your question I would be fine with it but pretty sure anybody who knows trials would realize Toni is still the FIM World Champion and it doesn't look like anybody will take that from him anytime soon. Hope that answers all you questions for today... I have some riding to do . Cheers, Not really answered much... but I will try to clarify so I don't mis-understand you. So, the MMC ( thought it was MCC) gives $$ to World Enduro Canada, who then gives it to World Trials Canada and they pay for Insurance that will cover anyone in Canada who wants to hold a trial, free of charge? Is this correct? If so. I myself would wonder why its free, and what the end goal is for providing it free? Do you actually know why? I do not think that ANY sanctioning body can have any sustainable long term plan with NO funds, no members, no licences. You believe otherwise? By the entire country of riders belonging to ONE organization, and contributing funds, growing the sport as the grass roots level, and then club level, then Provincially, and finally Nationally, in my eyes can only be the best scenario. You disagree? I think its pretty easy to look at ANY non profit sport in any country, and see that this formula is really the only viable concept. By OUR National Championship, I meant, Canada. There is only one. You need to understand that credibility is very important to any of the riders who are at the top of our sport here. In order to be in a position to promote and attract sponsorship of any kind. All of this is intertwined and we MUST work together. I don't see two British champions, or Spanish champions, etc.... As you say, if I started my own World Championship, you wouldn't have an issue with the winner calling himself the World Champion because you know who the real one is......really??? Wow. I DO know who the best trials riders are in Canada, and anyone who is informed does too....its no secret. So also you are telling me that you don't use the FREE insurance offered by WTC?? Did I read that wrong? Also, I am not sure where you get your figures on what it would cost you and your club ( how many members and what is the membership fee, and entry fee at events?). A rep from the CMA TAC, Derek Thomas will be contacting you soon, and he has recently started a new club in Sask and would be able to give you the true cost of everything.Do you know what the purpose of WTC is and why it was started??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve fracy Posted June 26, 2015 Report Share Posted June 26, 2015 I don't think that Micheal_t has a unique logic to himself and i agree with his logic in some respects. Steve what do you think the WTC organization should do then? Just go away and not promote the sport? Change their name? Whats the solution? What is the impact of the WTC to your organization? --Biff Hi Biff: I think first off the WTC should publicly announce how and why it was formed, and what its goals are ( I already know). If there is someone who is willing to pay the insurance for individuals, or clubs who cannot afford to buy their own private insurance (this is incredibly reasonable in Canada), then I see a value of that and helping promote the sport. But, only if the $$$ is somehow put back into the sport. Obviously a club would do this. I do think that the way it operates in almost all ways, is very deceitful ( I can elaborate privately if you wish), but mostly I find it incredibly counter productive to announce a National Champion when it is not. How do you think Pat, RYP and every importer would react If YOU started your won sanctioning body and held a National championship down south, and a different US Champ was announced other that Pat Smage?? Personally I say hold your events, help small clubs out where you can and individuals who want to hold trials, and leave it at that. I would also say, DO not discourage any new group of riders who wish to form a new club too! But this has been done, why I don't know. Not necessarily by the WTC, but one of the main entities. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
biffsgasgas Posted June 26, 2015 Report Share Posted June 26, 2015 OK so the last thing Canada needs is someone from the US passing judgement. I am just passing along perspective. Michael_T I am on board. Steve, If some one wants a trophy with a title whats keeping them from making their own. I know that it gets under the skin but in the end a some just ride for trophy others just ride to ride. The insurance thing is troubling I agree but in the end it is about trust. You can control what is under your control but you can't control all. This is a double edged sword and it does not need to go private. The west coast in your country deserves as much attention but if you cast them aside all it does is encourage the separation. Again this is outsiders perspective. I can tell you that outsiders perspective is that politics turns people away from the sport. I have seen it happen and it turned me away each time politics causes interference for me personally. I am going to go ride in the back yard now. The lights are setup and bugs are missing me. Some 2 stroke exhaust will help... --Biff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve fracy Posted June 26, 2015 Report Share Posted June 26, 2015 Have a good ride Biff! Politics is the very last thing I ever wanna deal with..... but sometimes if someone does not step up and question statements especially in this internet world, the truth can be misconstrued. We don't have any really here where I ride and everyone gets along really well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
biffsgasgas Posted June 26, 2015 Report Share Posted June 26, 2015 Have a good ride Biff! Politics is the very last thing I ever wanna deal with..... but sometimes if someone does not step up and question statements especially in this internet world, the truth can be misconstrued. We don't have any really here where I ride and everyone gets along really well. Stick with that. Trials people are good people. There can be exceptions but don't focus on them. Focus on the positive aspects. --Biff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael_t Posted June 26, 2015 Report Share Posted June 26, 2015 It may not be perfect but it is what we have today. Steve was a part of starting the WTC (I wasn't) so he is the best person to speak to why it was started. I'm just glad he did and although it seems to rub him the wrong way today there isn't much anybody can do about it, so get out and ride and enjoy the sport while you can - life is too short my friends. BTW MTR has over 20 riders (memebership with the provincial organization $20 is encouraged but not mandatory) events are no cost and most people pitch in to help out. We get funding from putting on one demo a year (around $2000), we put on one training day a year that we charge riders for (we even have a few Enduro riders sign up) the money raised from our training day goes to support the TdN team (typically around $600). I can understand people being upset with trying to compete with free and some get turned off by the whole idea but it is what it is for the time being. Unless you feel you have a legitimate (legal) case to complain please stop and let us all get back to our riding. No need to have Derek send me a note with his costs - I know what mine are. I even bought lunch for all the riders at our last event as we had extra money kicking around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael_t Posted June 26, 2015 Report Share Posted June 26, 2015 BTW I am also putting on a free shooting camp tomorrow for Biathletes in the Province. It is part of Biathlon Canada's free postal shooting competition... you do have to pay $10.00 a year to Biathlon Canada as a "recreational athlete" but in Whistler you can pay $10 to just walk in and look at a Biathlon facility. Come to think of it we wear tight pants in that sport also but nobody calls anybody silly when you have a rifle on your back ... and no Steve I do not put on an event that I call the Olympics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve fracy Posted June 26, 2015 Report Share Posted June 26, 2015 It may not be perfect but it is what we have today. Steve was a part of starting the WTC (I wasn't) so he is the best person to speak to why it was started. I'm just glad he did and although it seems to rub him the wrong way today there isn't much anybody can do about it, so get out and ride and enjoy the sport while you can - life is too short my friends. BTW MTR has over 20 riders (memebership with the provincial organization $20 is encouraged but not mandatory) events are no cost and most people pitch in to help out. We get funding from putting on one demo a year (around $2000), we put on one training day a year that we charge riders for (we even have a few Enduro riders sign up) the money raised from our training day goes to support the TdN team (typically around $600). I can understand people being upset with trying to compete with free and some get turned off by the whole idea but it is what it is for the time being. Unless you feel you have a legitimate (legal) case to complain please stop and let us all get back to our riding. No need to have Derek send me a note with his costs - I know what mine are. I even bought lunch for all the riders at our last event as we had extra money kicking around. Wow! I do know why it was started, but I shocked that you don't know. The answer is troubling and perhaps you may or may not feel so good about it. I hope your enthusiasm truly keeps it all going MIchaeal. I am sure as you grow, the model you are using will become something that may have to change. Good luck, and I encourage you to get some answers. You may understand me more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael_t Posted June 26, 2015 Report Share Posted June 26, 2015 Sorry but I never said I knew all of WTCs deep dark secrets and if you are not willing to share what your or "their" original intent was I guess it will remain a secret. All I know is when I went to put on my first event I asked both organizations what would be involved both offered up the ability for me to put their logo's on my events, cover my insurance, and provide a rule book... which was pretty much all I figured I really needed. The only difference was that one was free the other I had to have all members pay to join their organization (with no clear understanding where the money would go) and I never did get a cost for insuring actual events. I choose WTC and ended up only really using their rule book and logo. As you say this may change in the future and CMA may come out with an offer I just can't refuse... Or the WTC may reveal a deep secret that as a club we won't be able to live with but until then I think I will just carry on enjoying what we have (which is actually very little) for free. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dan williams Posted July 1, 2015 Report Share Posted July 1, 2015 I feel like I just watched a documentary on the Canadian Civil War. Sorry but it is rather entertaining. Apology for being rude. Rudeness. Apology for upcoming insult. Mild insult. Apology for angry tone. Have a nice day. Canadians are so nice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael_t Posted July 2, 2015 Report Share Posted July 2, 2015 (edited) Happy July 1st - Canada Day - By looking at the results from both WTC Nationals http://www.trialscanada.com/wtc-west-2015.html and the CMA BC Championships http://www.trialscanada.com/cma-crumpit.pdf It would seem that the riders are very comparable with the 2 expert riders (Steve and Stan) that rode in both events scoring almost the same in both events. I just wish I was able to get out there and take part. After traveling to the West coast last winter it was great seeing such an active trials community and certainly something we would like to work towards here on the East coast. Edited July 2, 2015 by michael_t Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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