lineaway Posted March 8, 2015 Report Share Posted March 8, 2015 Any bike from the 90`s feel too heavy now! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heavydabber Posted March 8, 2015 Report Share Posted March 8, 2015 (edited) Light weight does not have to mean unreliable. I don't want an unreliable bike, I want a lightweight one that is reliable & performs well. As you say, the technology to achieve this is readily available. FIM introduced an increased minimum weight limit a couple of years back, it was not popular with many. Dadof2's suggestion to further increase this minimum weight does not get my support. But would the application of this technology be affordable? Manufacturers have to build bikes for the "masses" (even though those "masses" in the trials world are already few and probably dwindling in number) for it to be anything like economic. If you start building 50kg bikes with unobtanium (to make them strong/reliable enough as your request) how much will they cost? And how many could afford to buy them? It would put the sport even further out of reach for many. If one person has technology then everybody else needs it in order to compete with that person. And if they can't afford it, they'll go and do something else. At the risk of being flamed on here, I'd suggest that we need more affordable, lower-tech bikes, that might lead to easier sections and make the sport more attractive to many. Most people would hardly notice a couple of pounds of weight extra but the stronger and cheaper materials (eg steel over alloy and carbon) would make bikes more reliable and affordable. Twinshocks are now mostly 30+ years old, they were built of low-tech materials. How many modern bikes will be around in 30 years time? Look at Formula 1 as an extreme example. The organisers impose rule changes every year to try and limit the advantages of technology or the top teams would run away even more than they do. This keeps the sport within the reaches of the smaller, less financed teams (even though their costs are still stratospheric). It also keeps the designers on their toes as they try to find ways around the rule changes, be they smaller tyres or limits on fuel consumption. Trials and its technology has been allowed to run away with the result that it's so specialised, and thus so difficult at times that fewer and fewer bods are interested in taking it up. which is bad news for the sport and the manufacturers who sell the bikes and the kit. Edited March 8, 2015 by heavydabber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shyted Posted March 8, 2015 Report Share Posted March 8, 2015 (edited) A quick one as I'm off to run a trial the problem is no one knows about trials. Secret sport and non existent promotion unless that can be addressed things wont progress! 100% true .100% agree. I see more enduro bikes on the scene and for as many new trials riders come older ones seem to go.Gasgas exposure out side of off road ,nill. Honda ,ads on TV, bill boards MOTO GP ,F1.Isn't it funny though no bill boards of Tony Bou. It's a tough nut to crack. Edited March 8, 2015 by shyted 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heavydabber Posted March 8, 2015 Report Share Posted March 8, 2015 Exactly, shyted. Honda use F1 and MotoGP to advertise engineering excellence in cars and road bikes to millions of potential consumers around the world. Billboards of Tony Bou would sell what? Trials is so small that most people have never heard of him (outside Spain anyway, lol) And how many million Repsol reps do they sell anyway? Honda only got involved with Montesa in the 80s to give them access to the lucrative Spanish moped market which was protected in favour of the Spanish manufacturers. Otherwise Mont would have probably gone the way of Bult and Ossa :-( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve_earle Posted March 8, 2015 Report Share Posted March 8, 2015 In reply to a few different posts. Bring back junior kickstart, This is responsible for a large part of todays riders. Youth numbers are low because the current generation of parents can not be ar5ed to spend time with their kids, they buy x boxes to keep them occupied, also they think trials is that stuff they see at the red bull street trials and such, The average person will not look at that and think I can have a go at that! Low tech heavy bikes do not sell well, Ie scorpa sy and tyf's. New trials riders don't buy new bikes anyway, Our club has a lot of new riders over the last 3 years including youths. Newbies buy a cheap £800 bike to start with and upgrade gradualy over time. A 90KG, Strong new Gas Gas will not get people into the sport, It will just make existing riders keep their old bikes for 10 years, Used bikes will be more expensive for newcomers and all the manufactures will go bust anyway. The heavy bike fans have priced the classic side of the sport out of reach and will not attract new riders. Middle aged, high earning, riders started to pay over the odds for Fantics and Tlr's then spend 1000's tricking them up. Now a barn find Yam Ty isn't affordable anymore. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zippy Posted March 8, 2015 Report Share Posted March 8, 2015 A quick one as I'm off to run a trial the problem is no one knows about trials. Secret sport and non existent promotion unless that can be addressed things wont progress! yep I just watched "On any Sunday - The Next Chapter" Wonderful film does a great update to the first film. Many great stories and highlights the people involved. But failed greatly to bring up Trials. there was about 5-10 seconds of a Trials bike, no mention of what the bike was or even that trials is a sport. missed a great opportunity to showcase the skill involved and bring trials to more people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve_earle Posted March 8, 2015 Report Share Posted March 8, 2015 We need more of a middle ground between the last two opinions. Broken frames and unreliable engines is not progress. Neither is adding weight to meet set standards. What we really need is a bike to get more new riders involved in our dying sport. Maybe a tlr230, electric start, disc brakes and street legal. Something that might be sold by the thousands, but not just for trials riders. Like this one? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heavydabber Posted March 8, 2015 Report Share Posted March 8, 2015 Steve, if we leave all the manufacturers to go bust we end up with a decreasing field of old bikes that you can't get bits for or more exclusive bikes like 4RTs that few can afford? Problem is: Manufacturers are incorporating materials,tech and development that they don't make enough money back from = manufacturers go bust; and older bikes will be even shorter lived because there'll be no spares to keep them going Solutions? Raise prices of bikes which means fewer sales of more exclusive bikes, eg 4RT but fewer riders also? Or build simpler and/or cheaper bikes that more can afford and recognise that the sport needs surgery if it's going to survive and prosper? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve_earle Posted March 8, 2015 Report Share Posted March 8, 2015 I see where your coming from, But if they start making, say for instance 75kg bikes I won't be buying a new one. I, along with many others, will keep mine going until spares run out for it. Gas Gas have now stopped Magnesium cases on the racing and factory (raga) from 2014, That might have something to do with the recent FIM weight limits. I think bikes have hit the limit at the moment, a 2005 GG is only slightly heavier in the real world than the 15 model. If bikes were limited to 67 to 69 kg that would be fine as they can be fairly strong and still light. Bikes still have to evolve to sell, but suspension improvements and fuel injection should be the big one, rather than shaving weight. Gas Gas did do a heavier econo model for the U.S, I wonder if that sold well? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lineaway Posted March 9, 2015 Report Share Posted March 9, 2015 That`s the point. It would have to be a main stream build. Honda, Yamaha etc. But like the Honda TLR Reflex( Yamaha could have done the 225 motor) that could be stripped down to basics. Gas Gas brought it in, a cheap under powered motor that was not street legal in most places. How many Gas Gas dealers have showrooms displaying models to hundreds of buyers? The Japs are missing the boat, used trials bikes are bought up fast in the USA due to Endurocross. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
breagh Posted March 9, 2015 Report Share Posted March 9, 2015 Drifting off,you have to create a market for Trials bikes if not it wont matter if they're 50 or 100kg. Up here running loads of beginner trials/practice/days/training has worked up to a point. New dealers have emerged and we do get new members nearly every trial. Five out of the top seven bikes on Sunday were new Scorpas. It's just getting the word out which isn't easy but there people out there that want to ride. It's not uncommon for new riders to say to me I would have done trials 20/30 years ago if I had known about it. Damning really,we've totally failed. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shyted Posted March 9, 2015 Report Share Posted March 9, 2015 (edited) It's all a bit bizzar this if you think. I know of 4 official Honda/Montesa importers and 1 independant in the UK. I know of 4 official GasGas distributors in 50 mile radius of where i live Martin Sandiford of Montesa fame, being a GasGas distributor closest one . The GasGas is a fantastic bike to ride ! The current situation would not stop me from buying one new if i wanted ,nor you lads out there. If it does stop you and you want one, that just exasperates their problem.Hope that last sentance makes sense as it's not a jib at anyone. So they are a victim of their own circumstances unfortunatly. A nich crowd who's iffing and butting weather to buy a brand new bike,massive debts for a relativly small company who appeal to a minority. So what do they do? A lower tech bike might appeal to some . Don't know about you but i would sooner have a cheaper heavier GasGas than a light weight cheaper China or India bike,no matter how good it is . Bregh is hitting the nail on the head for me though.Few new customers, bikes that are getting dearer and more complexed every year, no media coverage. Thats all befor you take the competition in to the equasion. Edited March 10, 2015 by shyted Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b40rt Posted March 9, 2015 Report Share Posted March 9, 2015 If you think heavy is the way to go, buy yourself a twin shock from the 70's. 90 kg - heavy !!! Most of women carry more than that in their handbags. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddie_lejeune Posted March 9, 2015 Report Share Posted March 9, 2015 In reply to a few different posts. Bring back junior kickstart, This is responsible for a large part of todays riders. Youth numbers are low because the current generation of parents can not be ar5ed to spend time with their kids, they buy x boxes to keep them occupied, also they think trials is that stuff they see at the red bull street trials and such, The average person will not look at that and think I can have a go at that! Low tech heavy bikes do not sell well, Ie scorpa sy and tyf's. New trials riders don't buy new bikes anyway, Our club has a lot of new riders over the last 3 years including youths. Newbies buy a cheap £800 bike to start with and upgrade gradualy over time. A 90KG, Strong new Gas Gas will not get people into the sport, It will just make existing riders keep their old bikes for 10 years, Used bikes will be more expensive for newcomers and all the manufactures will go bust anyway. The heavy bike fans have priced the classic side of the sport out of reach and will not attract new riders. Middle aged, high earning, riders started to pay over the odds for Fantics and Tlr's then spend 1000's tricking them up. Now a barn find Yam Ty isn't affordable anymore. Best post on this website in years 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b40rt Posted March 9, 2015 Report Share Posted March 9, 2015 The heavy bike fans have priced the classic side of the sport out of reach and will not attract new riders. Middle aged, high earning, riders started to pay over the odds for Fantics and Tlr's then spend 1000's tricking them up. Now a barn find Yam Ty isn't affordable anymore. Maybe they know something you don't ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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