b40rt Posted March 9, 2015 Report Share Posted March 9, 2015 Hi Glen, didn't realize the fantasy ramblings were confined to GG. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heavydabber Posted March 9, 2015 Report Share Posted March 9, 2015 If you have a look at the CCMCC results I gave the link to you will see in second place was a twinshock, probably near 90kg. I do not want to make bikes heavier just for the sake of it, As I am the wrong side of 50 years old and carrying a few old injuries having a light easy to handle bike is preferable. What I feel would be to the overall benefit of the sport would be a restriction on development that adds costs and in some instances makes the bikes less reliable. At the moment to make their bikes competitive manufacturers have to make them as light as possible. A weight and exotic material restriction would end the necessity for manufacturers to develop in this direction, hopefully cutting their development costs and increasing reliability. I chose 77kg because that is about the weight of a ready to go 4RT. At some trials last year including a national I spoke to several riders who were able to flick their 4Rts about, some had been lightened, some were standard. Even F1 the costly pinnacle of motor sport has weight and development restrictions, but for some reason when it comes to trials, a predominantly amateur sport there are virtually no restrictions. Would Gas gas now be in a better position if it had not had to go to the expense of the lightweight pro engine development? Steve Earl states a 90Kg GG won;t get new riders into the sort, I can't disagree with that, but a more reliable lower cost bike would probably stop some quitting. When I bought my first trials bike it was not to compete in trials, it was to have something road legal that I could also mess about on on rough ground. I could also commute and go to the pub on it. Farmers used them for shepherding. That is how most people I know got into trials. That route for entry to the sport is now pretty well none existent and trials bike specialisation is a significant factor in this. A big +1 to all of that. Lets not forget the old story of how the UK Ossa, Bultaco and Montesa importers EACH sold 1000 bikes a year in the mid 70s. Anybody have any idea how many bikes a year Shirty, Birks and everybody else sell, put together nowadays? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve_earle Posted March 9, 2015 Report Share Posted March 9, 2015 (edited) Our club has been doing an arena demo at a big steam and craft show for the last couple of years. We try to make the sport seem accessible to new riders. We have a couple of experts for entertainment but the bulk of riders are youths and clubmen riding sensible stuff, We have a big photo display of real trials so people realise what we do in the woods at weekends and not ride over skips for a hobby. We have modern, twinshock, pre 65 and osets at the show and we hand out lots of leaflets. It would be good for the sport if other clubs did the same throughout the country even on a smaller scale. Edited March 9, 2015 by steve_earle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve_earle Posted March 9, 2015 Report Share Posted March 9, 2015 I know it's strayed off topic and not gas gas specific but straying to the route of trials future in general rather than just gas gas, Sorry in advance for off topic slightly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neils on wheels Posted March 9, 2015 Report Share Posted March 9, 2015 A big +1 to all of that. Lets not forget the old story of how the UK Ossa, Bultaco and Montesa importers EACH sold 1000 bikes a year in the mid 70s. Anybody have any idea how many bikes a year Shirty, Birks and everybody else sell, put together nowadays? Remind us what happened next to Ossa, Bultaco & Montesa... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baldilocks Posted March 9, 2015 Report Share Posted March 9, 2015 Remind us what happened next to Ossa, Bultaco & Montesa... Gladly Neil They went the way of the previous manufacturers of heavy uncompetitive bikes, now known as pre 65. Twinshocks or pre 65s are not the "cure" for our current problems. Yes Ross you and lots of others like your twinshocks, I got bored of it rather quickly but may return one day. It doesn't matter to you or any like minded individuals that Gas Gas may go bust, but it should matter to Gas Gas that you bought a twinshock. why do people spend more on a twinshock or pre 65 than they could have a new or recent modern bike for. Having had both there is no less maintenance in an SWM than a Gas Gas at my level. I think its more to do with the sections provided and the level of challenge for the rider but that's my opinion. Buy a twinshock and the easy course can be challenging enough and you don't have depreciation. Buy a new bike you have depreciation and a trial that's too easy. Manufacturers need to improve quality as do those people putting flags in, volunteers they may be but they are crucial to the success of any event. There is an example of a very bad event in the last 24 hours, it was in Barcelona. What an appalling advert for our sport. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baldilocks Posted March 9, 2015 Report Share Posted March 9, 2015 PS rode my Gas Gas yesterday, another trial completed on the same gearbox. I hope they survive but 24m Euros is a lot. sorry to drift back onto topic.... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heavydabber Posted March 9, 2015 Report Share Posted March 9, 2015 Remind us what happened next to Ossa, Bultaco & Montesa... Their sales downturned in the face of competition from the likes of Fantic, development was limited (Bulto painted their bikes blue and Ossa built the Gripper), Spanish labour laws wouldn't allow the slimming of the workforce, that only had one outcome. As previously posted, Mont would have gone under too if Honda hadn't got involved to get a foothold in the Spanish moped market. The list of casualties in the trials game is long and ongoing, SWM/Gori, Fantic as well. Is it passion for the sport taking pride over finances? Why have the Japs only ever really dipped their toes in now and again? Something has to be wrong with the sport somewhere down the line? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b40rt Posted March 9, 2015 Report Share Posted March 9, 2015 Their sales downturned in the face of competition from the likes of Fantic, development was limited (Bulto painted their bikes blue and Ossa built the Gripper), Spanish labour laws wouldn't allow the slimming of the workforce, that only had one outcome. As previously posted, Mont would have gone under too if Honda hadn't got involved to get a foothold in the Spanish moped market. The list of casualties in the trials game is long and ongoing, SWM/Gori, Fantic as well. Is it passion for the sport taking pride over finances? Why have the Japs only ever really dipped their toes in now and again? Something has to be wrong with the sport somewhere down the line? Historical note, SWM didn't fail, government/unions intervened and owners moved on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kramit Posted March 10, 2015 Report Share Posted March 10, 2015 If you think heavy is the way to go, buy yourself a twin shock from the 70's. Checking the number of entries at Vintage Trials.....I think people are! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heavydabber Posted March 10, 2015 Report Share Posted March 10, 2015 Checking the number of entries at Vintage Trials.....I think people are! "Do-able" sections and less chance of injury perhaps? As pointed out by others, the money that's being thrown at them means they're not much cheaper than a modern bike...? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gizza5 Posted March 10, 2015 Report Share Posted March 10, 2015 20 pages in and I reckon the Gas Gas situation could make 3 of the pages written here the rest has bugger all to do with the topic, maybe it is time to sit back and wait to here some news 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neils on wheels Posted March 10, 2015 Report Share Posted March 10, 2015 Their sales downturned in the face of competition from the likes of Fantic, development was limited (Bulto painted their bikes blue and Ossa built the Gripper), Spanish labour laws wouldn't allow the slimming of the workforce, that only had one outcome. As previously posted, Mont would have gone under too if Honda hadn't got involved to get a foothold in the Spanish moped market. The list of casualties in the trials game is long and ongoing, SWM/Gori, Fantic as well. Is it passion for the sport taking pride over finances? Why have the Japs only ever really dipped their toes in now and again? Something has to be wrong with the sport somewhere down the line? So here is where I'm struggling. Your earlier posts suggest a restriction of development, yet here you acknowledge that restricted development contributed to the demise of the first wave of Spanish manufacturers. I just cannot see how restricting development will help this time around, as others on here have posted, it may encourage more of us to hold on to our bikes for longer and thus put Gas Gas and others in a worse situation as sales decline. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted March 10, 2015 Report Share Posted March 10, 2015 Major development on the bike was pretty much done by 2011, the more recent ones ride very similar ,only the 2015 ones have been significantly improved with the carb and shock but the price has jumped up accordingly .Speaking to local riders most feel £5k is as much as they want to pay for a bike ,most aren't earning much more than 5years ago Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heavydabber Posted March 10, 2015 Report Share Posted March 10, 2015 Development in the wrong direction maybe? Reliability and durability sacrificed to save a couple of kilos here and there? Gas Gas apparently now have gearbox problems. Ossa tried to make selector forks and shift drums out of alloy on the early TRs - they quickly wore and got Ossa an early bad name. Manufacturers are incorporating tech and materials that they don't make enough of a return on cos they don't make enough on bikes or sell enough bikes. So they go under. Yet still we the punters are told that we need still lighter, higher tech bikes to compete on every year. It's a long blind alley, but I don't know where it ends personally. Either we have to pay more for fewer, more exclusive bikes or we change the rules to keep things affordable and lower our expectations in order to keep our sport going and thriving? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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