Another Blow To Super Cub Trials Projects.

[charlie prescott]

Hi Guy’s.

Firstly, I am not moaning.

Stating fact.

I live “Classic” trials every day from dawn until past dusk.

Building bikes, writing about them, and dreaming.

For a start about the “Super Cub” Mini “Otter”.

It was only coincidence that Jon started to build his bikes the same time has I had my idea of mine in my head.

I have two grand sons, very young at the moment,

But wondered how I could perhaps one day If I live long enough I may be able to get them into Motorcycle trials, to enjoy along with other two wheel related sport for, the same has I have.

Building and collecting BSA “Otter’s” for the past ten years, I wondered how I could build a small version of a bike related to these.

I started to build a ‘Mini Majesty” with Chinese engine, but when it was assembled it turned out to be a full size machine.

Then I had purchased some parts needed from a Pit Bike site and started to look at the motors, and could not believe how cheap they were along with the spares.

So it was a no brainer one of these units would be the basis of my “Mini” Otter.

I at the time was also rebuilding the ex Nick Draper Hubbo Cotswold BSA C15, and when the motor arrived for the Mini I placed it into the frame, and it looked good. So we built a frame using these dimensions for this little bike.

I used like I always do when I can get them or build them; the Deryk hated Triumph/BSA four stud forks. And cheap Jialing back wheel, and my now standard fitment Yamaha TY front wheel and hub.

It took a while to build but I always have six on the go at the same time.

We fired it up last May and I could not believe how good a little bike it had turned out.

And just thought it was a shame for it to sit in the shadows until the boys had grown up, and I would love to have seen it ridden in the Sam Cooper trial, that is near us.

Then the ACU changed their Sam rules because Jon had won a Championship on his Super Cub engined machine last year. But changed them to the current situation later.

I then thought that perhaps there would be a chance that perhaps the problem with these little machines had been considered to be resolved and accepted, but I was wrong Jon had been allowed to ride in last Sunday’s trial, but taken from the results on the Monday.

This can’t be right.

When new ground up builds that have nothing to do with BSA or triumph for that matter kept their results standing. Along with one of Jon’s earlier builds.

Any way I will keep my little Mini “Otter” for the boys to ride when they are old enough, and by this time it will be a “Classic”.

Unfortunately no one will now want to buy one of these frames, that I was considering having made if I could find somewhere cheap enough to make them.

Regards Charlie.

[japes1275]

Suzuki250, are you calling me insane?!

B40rt, that lad would have been given a five if I'd been observing, when he put his foot down the front wheel stopped moving. Forward motion ceased - 5 marks lost!

[trials27]

I have been riding my supercub that Jon built me last year and I have to say it's the best fun I've had in years.

In all the trials I ride it in I've. Not had any complaint... well not to my face anyway.

The compliments are always there from the older generation of riders, nice to see young person riding ,what a great idea the bike is etc.

I will be taking my super cub over to belgium this Easter to compete in there twin shock.trial there.

Until the rules. Are changed and my bike is no longer allowed It will be ridden at every chance possible

[john b]

The following youtube gives an example of a very talented rider, I have no idea who he is and I'm not picking on him or saying he's a pot hunter.

That is Ben Butterworth at the nostalgia 3 years ago. A very very good rider I see in the results regularly in classics (lost out on 3 way tie at captains trial at the weekend). In the results I see him at the top, but not necessarily cleaning everything, and others not far behind.

I have to say over the last year in classics we have had nothing but encouragement for my son - and these will tell you to your face, but the tiny minority of whingers never will....

Cheers

John

[andy m]

Surely it's only the nationals that need to get their classes in order and add a specials class , I know our club Herefordshire classic trials club wouldn't have any problems with the Cub. If I hadn't got too many things on the go I'd knock one up myself. I have seen a couple of these in trials and they are a cracking bike. If every club had a specials class then there wouldn't be all the bickering. Yes you can buy a twinshock for less than 1k but you can also build a special, spend money with various businesses and suppliers and therefore spread your money a bit wider. Look at the cottage industries connected to the Pre 65 game.

[htrdoug]

The looping out of the sections and or not adhereing to the imaginary line between markers is my pet hate... that is something the Frenchies love doing and see little wrong in it...

I know it takes more time to layout,but cannot you ribbon or tape the sections to keep riders "in bounds"? removes judgement calls and eliminates conflict between checker and rider.

If the sections are too big or long maybe just ribbon a few feet in front and behind of each flag to force the riding line.

[charlie prescott]

Hi Guy's.

Just for you Deryk what do you think.

Express Trial Format.

We devised these rules to make a more watchable “Classic” trial.

And to give a non-trials following public something to get them interested in the sport.

Ok this is roughly has I remember it until I get confirmation from Lee.

Ten sections on closed land, with two routes. Four laps. In an allotted time scale.

At some sections there is third more difficult route through the section than the other two.

This is for gaining bonus points, if you feel you are able to clean the section, if you do, five, points will be deducted from your standard score card at the end of the trial. If you don’t five will be added.

This goes for every section with the third route.

All competing will walk the course before the start, with an expert to explain the route and sections,

Each rider will then start the event at one or two minuet intervals; there leisurely time will be started.

There will be no walking sections after the start. This should keep a constant stream of competing bikes without hold up and breaks in the flow. (This did work very well indeed).

Just makes a more entertaining trial, and was liked by every one that rode it.

So what do you think Deryk?

(Bit like the old time trial format with a twist?)

Regards Charlie.

[aawil]

hi deryk and charlie its a pity that a lot of modern riders and course plotters have not had the experience of a real classic trial such as the tour of islwyn , how about a long section with two subs , with just a set of begins cards and a set of ends about 1/4 mile further up all in a natural rocky gully ridden by all classes including s/cars , maybe todays riders would have problems deciding which line to use without loads of tapes and markers to show them the way , i would still love to scrutineer some of the bikes , i think i will voulenteer my services to the t.a.l.m.a.g. next year that would be putting something back into the sport, after a quick stay in hospital i will be back riding my 197cc greeves outfit in a few events later in the year just me and a 56lb weight bolted in the chair as ballast , at last a passenger who does not moan when we are upside down, cheap classic trials total cost to build an award winning genuine pre 65 outfit £785, cheers for now ,, will ,

[john collins]

There seem to be many posts on this subject which seem to be getting quite a few people embroiled in various arguments, innuendo and accusation.

In my opinion the most sensible post expresses the opinion that it is time everyone just got on with enjoying the actual riding of the trials, stopped moaning about what everyone else is doing and based the result of how many times they stopped or put foot down, which is what we all thought trials was about surely?

Unfortunately there is also a fair bit of miss information circulating, and perhaps it is worth putting this correct:

There were changes made to the Sammy Miller series for 2015 and the intention was as stated in italics in the PR which was circulated and which I paste below.

While the intention as stated, was perhaps good, the inclusion of the 50 machines etc was not so good and this attempt at sorting one problem resulted in causing more.

So for 2015 - note the date. The part in bold was introduced.

People need to actually read this, but also note what the last para states i.e that a complete review will take place for 2016. Therefore for 2015 we will have to work with what we have, which I will come back to later.

Re – 2016 – yes there will be a review and we will have some ideas

Will it solve all the problems and make everyone happy ? Doubtful , More chance of a lottery win.

Why- Because too many want a set of regulations, as long as they suit them.

Do not take my word for it , just look back over the posts on such matters past and present and it is very easy to see the diversity of opinion.

When we introduced a Special Class that many are suggesting – we had complaints Some riders who we would probably regard as riding “ Specials” insisted on circumnavigating the rules to continue riding in the original classes?

Pot hunters ? Probably. The problem with a Special class is defining exactly what is a “ Special” and what is not, and as I have stated some who certainly should know better take a delight in finding a loophole

BEWARE : All this may be controversial stuff may be fun for some – BUT the real problem that some others have sensibly mentioned, is that all this is likely to pee- off organisers and it eventually will.

Any organiser of any trial knows how much work is involved, finding a venue, marking the sections, finding Observers, producing results and so on, to make at the end of the day the cash they would achieve running a small boot sale. Those who like to comment on what everyone else should do, but never actually get involved in running an event in any shape or form or part of the problem not solution.

Wake up lads, you are going to put another nail in the coffin if you expect these hard working organisers to also examine machines in the minutest of details to determine if they belong in the class they have entered. These are Classic trials which are supposed to be enjoyable for all. It ain’t the TT.

For the pundits who at each and every opportunity have all the answers , why do not some of you volunteer to go to the events and be a specific Machine examiner. If we have volunteers I will try to set this up, including some expense for your travel. Any takers? That would make any 2016 review far easier.

japes 1275 comments about ACU being paid to sort all this out, merely shows how totally out of touch he really is and probably still believes in Father Xmas. If my payment from ACU totals enough for a pint during 2015 I will be absolutely delighted.

However I could be wrong, and he may have the answers, when he speaks about MSA regulations, great- lead by some example, produce your version of what should go in the ACU book – us highly paid bods will have an easy time just inserting it – job done. To make things easy, why not do as a few others have done

( unfortunately without that much agreement from others) ) on TC put down the definitive description of what the classes should be, and see if we can get some sort of agreement.

Back in the real world. We made changes to try to accommodate all. A silly article in the press tried to indicate that Jon Bliss was being prevented from riding etc

This was not true, and that is certainly not what is wanted. I actually applaud those who think a bit outside the box and try to produce something a bit different. I ride one. The question really is does a particular machine fit into the existing Championship classes. For any machines that did not we introduced the two Non Championship classes , one on each route so that no-one was refused a ride. We will examine all this again for 2016.

Iis it not time we had a bit of self discipline in our sport. We are mostly at an age where we should be leading by example. Does it really necessitate all this aggravation and conjecture as to if a bike has this or that. We have two routes - A & B determining severity. Just enter one of them, and if anyone has any doubts about the validity of their own bike, just enter the Non Championship class and enjoy your day. The results sheet will show how you fared against others , and after all is that not all we really require

Now as below for 215 and so there can be no doubt

For Classes 3 & 6 : Twinshock, Drum Brakes and not eligible for Class 2 or 5 respectively

AND AN ORIGINAL OR REPLICA /SILHOUETTE FRAME OF A MACHIME COMMECIALLY AVAILABLE AND ADVERTISED PRIOR TO 1990.

The twin shock and drum brakes should be easy to determine. The latter is where it gets controversial – perhaps. If it “ looks” like the machine it purports to represent – we can regard it as a replica/ silhouette

If it does not – or just has a bit if it looks like the original – it cannot be deemed to be a replica/ silhouette

Therefore, it must follow a machime not complying with these three things must go into Non Championship class, either on Route A or Rouite B

Enjoyable day out, but no Championship points

John Collins

Chairman ACU T & E

The intention of the amendments made to the classes of the ACU Sammy Miller Trial Championship was an attempt to bring the classes of Twinshock machines, which often had the Replica or Silhouette descriptions, into line with the other British Bike classes which have been in existence for many years. The desire was, and still is, to prevent modern mono machines being converted to Twinshocks and also to confirm that a Replica should be just that i.e a Replica of something previously made and in line with the overall philosophy of the Series. The age of a rider, capacity of any particular machine is not a relevant argument against this attempt.

However it does appear that the introduction of the words “50 machines” has caused concern and therefore for 2015 the criteria for CLASSES 3 & 6 will be:

For machines with twin-shock rear suspension and drum brakes as at the time of manufacture which are not eligible for class 2 and 5. All machines must have original frames or have replica/silhouette frames of machines that were commercially available and advertised prior to 1990.

Additional Non Championship Twin-shock Specials Class: For machines with twin-shock rear suspension and drum brakes which are not eligible for Classes 3 and 6. This class is intended for competitors to enjoy the principle of this Series with specials which are not eligible.

This additional class will be included on both Route A and Route B

PLEASE NOTE: FOR 2016 IT IS INTENDED THAT A COMPLETE REVIEW OF ALL THE CLASSES WILL BE UNDERTAKEN AS THE TRIALS AND ENDURO COMMITTEE REMAIN OF THE VIEW THAT THE ORIGINAL PHILOSOPHY OF THIS SERIES IS BEING LOST AND NEEDS EXAMINATION.

[gasserguy]

Nice to see some clarification. I guess both the pit bikes that entered the twin shock classes will be moved into class 7 or be disqualified from Sunday's Sammy Miller round and in fiture treat the series with some degree of respect to what is was originally set out to be!

Edited March 31, 2015 by gasserguy

[wallo]

John, are you related to the Pete Collins, trials legend from the South West?

Please put me down as a machine examiner, PM me with the details, really looking forward to helping out.

[wallo]

Sorry, one final point.

Is all of this really important given news like this?

http://news.sky.com/story/1456029/one-direction-fury-at-zayn-malik-solo-demo

[charlie prescott]

Hi Guy's,

Hi Wallo,

Now we do need these guy's onboard , And I have been sharpening up on my acoustic tonight.

Regards Charlie.

[charlie prescott]

Hi Guy’s.

John,

I do so hope that at the end of the season and a review of the ruling are considered.

You will keep in mind the plight of the Super Cub Trials engined machines.

I built my machine as an entry-level way into the sport for a novice, or junior rider.

And again for a more mature person that loved their trial riding but through health related problems would still like to compete on a machine more suitable to their condition and age.

They were also designed to compete on the more gentle Classic type of section, and not be lumped into a Modern type trial with the severity of sections that are not considered the machines were designed for.

Perhaps a separate Class is the way forward for these machines in a Classic trials situation.

This then may satisfy the discontent that seems to be aimed at these little machines at present.

Regards Charlie.

[suzuki250]

A classic trial with modern Chinese engines and wheels, not for me…!

Maybe you should ask for a class with the modern trials events?