Another Blow To Super Cub Trials Projects.

[breagh]

I must admit I know little about the Pre 65 Scene however T/S does interest me.

Surely allowing any modifications apart from what is considered "reasonably practical" is making a stick for your own back?

As for "new " T/S I think this is great,but they should be in with the modern stuff can't see them being a disadvantage on your average modern clubman route.

[laird387]

Hi,

If the A-CU are REALLY going to undertake a revision of their current rules, perhaps, since I actually created the original series and coordinated it for the first ten years, they might consider a complete reversion to the original rules as a starting basis for their consideration.

I may not be being totally realistic - but I doubt whether anybody in the current organisation has ever seen a copy of the original regulations..........

That is easily corrected, here they are.

"1. MACHINE ELIGIBILITY:

To be eligible machines must have been manufactured in Britain, prior to the 31 December 1958 for vintage twostroke machines; prior to 31 December 1964 for all pre-unit classes; prior to 31 December 1969 for twostroke and unit construction classes. All major components to include frames, forks, hubs, engines, gearboxes, clutches and carburettors must be of British manufacturer and available before the date of eligibility for the class concerned, with the minor concession that Amal carburettors up to Mk 1 Concentric may be fitted. Motorcycles fitted with non-British components during manufacture, such as Ceriani forks on certain Greeves models and Grimeca hubs on some DOT models, will be accepted as British, but those components will not be accepted on machines of other manufacture. Any model of British manufacture but with component parts that are not date eligible, such as alloy slider BSA or Triumph forks (1972) on unit models, may ride in the Specials class. Replica frames are accepted in the class of machine that they replicate provided they are dimensionally accurate replicas, i.e. components from the original models will fit without modification. Trail machines may be of any manufacture but must have fully working lights. Allocation of the correct class will be verified, if required, by the Series Coordinator.

The decision as to which class a hybrid machine is allotted shall be made such as to place the machine in the more competitive class, for example an Enfield Bullet motor mounted in Enfield Crusader cycle parts is deemed to be a unit model. The essence of the eligibility rules is to encourage fair competition.

2. CLASSES:

1 Girder Fork Rigid

2 Telefork Rigid

3 Pre-unit Springer

4 Vintage Twostroke

5 Twostroke

6 Unit Construction

7 Pre-unit Sidecar

8 Unit Sidecar

9 Specials

10 Trail

Additional supporting classes may be included at the Organisers discretion, but their marks must be completely segregated in the Results.

3. COURSE:

The courses will be between 30 and 60 miles in length and include 25 to 35 sub-sections of a type suited both to the type of machines and to the fact that the majority of riders are likely to be of a clubman standard. All machines will ride the same sections, dual-marked routes are not allowed.

Up to 5 sections may be set as 'solo only', and alternative sidecar sections may be set in lieu. To maintain fairness of competition the rigid solo classes are treated as sidecars insofar as they sections they

ride. In no case are steep drops or excessive steep steps to be included and tight turns are to be avoided. It is unlikely that Organisers offering more than a single lap event will be successful in the competition to be awarded rounds in future years.

4. FAILURE:

In this series all trials operate as non-stop trials, riders are deemed to have entered a section when the front axle crosses the 'Begins' line and leave the section when the front axle crosses the 'Ends' line. A failure is deemed to have occurred when the front wheel ceases forward motion, even momentarily. It is a further requirement that riders attempt to ride the hazards as defined by the Organisers and therefore will be deemed to have failed any section where they cross an imaginary natural line drawn between the side markers of the section, looping out of the section to gain a better line is not allowed.

5. CHAMPIONSHIP POINTS:

The points system used for the Championship has proved successful, the Champions have not been decided until the final round, ensuring maximum entries to the end. There has never been a tie in the final

Championship placings.

The points allotted each round are:

1st 20points

2nd 18

3rd 16

4th 14

5th 12

6th 10

7th 8

8th 6

9th 4

10th 2

All other finishers receive 1 point

Ties are normally decided by a simple Special Test. In the event that ties for lesser places are not able to be resolved, the points for the disputed places are added together and then divided equally between the tying riders. All riders who complete seven rounds during the year will be awarded a memento trophy

6. FINAL ASSESSMENT:

At the conclusion of the Series, the points for each riders best eight rounds will be counted and the rider with the highest number of points to his credit will be the winner. In the event of a tie the riders' best nine results will be counted and the rider with the higher number of points over nine rounds will be the winner."

PLEASE - put any questions that you have in to this forum and I will give you the answer that we verified as we created the original sport of pre-65 - and I am not of the fanciful notion that believes only I know the answer - but I can tell you whether anything has been tried before - and whether it worked - and if not, why not. My experience is here to be used.

Deryk Wylde

Edited March 27, 2015 by laird387

[metisse]

The looping out of the sections and or not adhereing to the imaginary line between markers is my pet hate... that is something the Frenchies love doing and see little wrong in it...

[ducman]

Do not bann the young people from Classic Trials.It is not good,as we all get older,and older and later there is nobody.Trouble is that some peolple live in the past.I#am now 52.I stopped with modern trials in 87 the get back in classic in 94,bought 2 Kawasaki KT 250 and wanted to ride twinshock in our country.I thought a Kt was a classic bike.Anyway me and me mate Ralph(1974 Bulto) turned on at the first round of the year.Both 31 years old.These "Old"guys looked at us in the paddock like aliens.Anyway we get penalty points as we were not old enough.40 was the limit to start with zero.We rode the trial(expert class)endet up with a win and 3rd and get dead last.Next month clean on the weekend an dead last.So we decieded to buy/build a pre 65 bike because this was boaring.Lot of peole said go riding modern.But we were not intersted in moderns.Anyway a year later we turned up with a 500 Triumph Twin and my mate with a BMW R 26.First ammount from the wise people was "Now you have propper bikes",but they are not competitive,The Triumph is too heavy and too long.The BMW is the same and now power.You better bought a B 40,C 15 or Cub.Our answer was:we love these bikes,because we enjoy the sound,smell and they are different.They where always complaing.We enjoyed riding them.After a couple of years we were acceptet as a rider and a person.The Triumph is sold since 08,still have my Duc and the 50cc Hercules for pre 65 and enjoy riding my Yam's and Majesty's in the Twinshock class.Lot of the "Wise"people are no longer riding or swapped to "not propper"bikes as they getting older.In my opinion it is the person on the bike or in the padock that count's not the bike,either twinshock or pre 65,both are classic bikes.For my agegroup the twinshock's are defenetly classic bikes as most of us rode them when we were young lads and so we have a realation and good memories(more or less) with these bikes.Potthunters:I know a lot of " wise" people in my country who are pothunters.When i ride sometimes my 50cc i can not ride it in expert as it is not possible.I drop a class down,if i won a pot,i give it to the last rider in the "woblers"class,as it is not my class.But i enjoy riding that little bike.So,please feel the young lads welcome and let them take our sport in the next generation.

Edited March 27, 2015 by ducman

[suzuki250]

The first new ACU should be:

Any persistent moaners should face a lifetime ban and be advised to take up another sport

Second rule:

Anyone still using original BSA forks should be classed as insane

[b40rt]

So there is no confusion, I'm not against young riders. Ok ?

The point being there are some extremely talented young guys on trick bikes, and the danger is that sections are tightened up to take marks off them.

The following youtube gives an example of a very talented rider, I have no idea who he is and I'm not picking on him or saying he's a pot hunter.

[charlie prescott]

Hi Guy’s.

Firstly, I am not moaning.

Stating fact.

I live “Classic” trials every day from dawn until past dusk.

Building bikes, writing about them, and dreaming.

For a start about the “Super Cub” Mini “Otter”.

It was only coincidence that Jon started to build his bikes the same time has I had my idea of mine in my head.

I have two grand sons, very young at the moment,

But wondered how I could perhaps one day If I live long enough I may be able to get them into Motorcycle trials, to enjoy along with other two wheel related sport for, the same has I have.

Building and collecting BSA “Otter’s” for the past ten years, I wondered how I could build a small version of a bike related to these.

I started to build a ‘Mini Majesty” with Chinese engine, but when it was assembled it turned out to be a full size machine.

Then I had purchased some parts needed from a Pit Bike site and started to look at the motors, and could not believe how cheap they were along with the spares.

So it was a no brainer one of these units would be the basis of my “Mini” Otter.

I at the time was also rebuilding the ex Nick Draper Hubbo Cotswold BSA C15, and when the motor arrived for the Mini I placed it into the frame, and it looked good. So we built a frame using these dimensions for this little bike.

I used like I always do when I can get them or build them; the Deryk hated Triumph/BSA four stud forks. And cheap Jialing back wheel, and my now standard fitment Yamaha TY front wheel and hub.

It took a while to build but I always have six on the go at the same time.

We fired it up last May and I could not believe how good a little bike it had turned out.

And just thought it was a shame for it to sit in the shadows until the boys had grown up, and I would love to have seen it ridden in the Sam Cooper trial, that is near us.

Then the ACU changed their Sam rules because Jon had won a Championship on his Super Cub engined machine last year. But changed them to the current situation later.

I then thought that perhaps there would be a chance that perhaps the problem with these little machines had been considered to be resolved and accepted, but I was wrong Jon had been allowed to ride in last Sunday’s trial, but taken from the results on the Monday.

This can’t be right.

When new ground up builds that have nothing to do with BSA or triumph for that matter kept their results standing. Along with one of Jon’s earlier builds.

Any way I will keep my little Mini “Otter” for the boys to ride when they are old enough, and by this time it will be a “Classic”.

Unfortunately no one will now want to buy one of these frames, that I was considering having made if I could find somewhere cheap enough to make them.

Regards Charlie.

[japes1275]

Suzuki250, are you calling me insane?!

B40rt, that lad would have been given a five if I'd been observing, when he put his foot down the front wheel stopped moving. Forward motion ceased - 5 marks lost!

[trials27]

I have been riding my supercub that Jon built me last year and I have to say it's the best fun I've had in years.

In all the trials I ride it in I've. Not had any complaint... well not to my face anyway.

The compliments are always there from the older generation of riders, nice to see young person riding ,what a great idea the bike is etc.

I will be taking my super cub over to belgium this Easter to compete in there twin shock.trial there.

Until the rules. Are changed and my bike is no longer allowed It will be ridden at every chance possible

[john b]

The following youtube gives an example of a very talented rider, I have no idea who he is and I'm not picking on him or saying he's a pot hunter.

That is Ben Butterworth at the nostalgia 3 years ago. A very very good rider I see in the results regularly in classics (lost out on 3 way tie at captains trial at the weekend). In the results I see him at the top, but not necessarily cleaning everything, and others not far behind.

I have to say over the last year in classics we have had nothing but encouragement for my son - and these will tell you to your face, but the tiny minority of whingers never will....

Cheers

John

[andy m]

Surely it's only the nationals that need to get their classes in order and add a specials class , I know our club Herefordshire classic trials club wouldn't have any problems with the Cub. If I hadn't got too many things on the go I'd knock one up myself. I have seen a couple of these in trials and they are a cracking bike. If every club had a specials class then there wouldn't be all the bickering. Yes you can buy a twinshock for less than 1k but you can also build a special, spend money with various businesses and suppliers and therefore spread your money a bit wider. Look at the cottage industries connected to the Pre 65 game.

[htrdoug]

The looping out of the sections and or not adhereing to the imaginary line between markers is my pet hate... that is something the Frenchies love doing and see little wrong in it...

I know it takes more time to layout,but cannot you ribbon or tape the sections to keep riders "in bounds"? removes judgement calls and eliminates conflict between checker and rider.

If the sections are too big or long maybe just ribbon a few feet in front and behind of each flag to force the riding line.

[charlie prescott]

Hi Guy's.

Just for you Deryk what do you think.

Express Trial Format.

We devised these rules to make a more watchable “Classic” trial.

And to give a non-trials following public something to get them interested in the sport.

Ok this is roughly has I remember it until I get confirmation from Lee.

Ten sections on closed land, with two routes. Four laps. In an allotted time scale.

At some sections there is third more difficult route through the section than the other two.

This is for gaining bonus points, if you feel you are able to clean the section, if you do, five, points will be deducted from your standard score card at the end of the trial. If you don’t five will be added.

This goes for every section with the third route.

All competing will walk the course before the start, with an expert to explain the route and sections,

Each rider will then start the event at one or two minuet intervals; there leisurely time will be started.

There will be no walking sections after the start. This should keep a constant stream of competing bikes without hold up and breaks in the flow. (This did work very well indeed).

Just makes a more entertaining trial, and was liked by every one that rode it.

So what do you think Deryk?

(Bit like the old time trial format with a twist?)

Regards Charlie.

[laird387]

Hi Charlie,

As long as no taping is allowed on the sections (I agree it can remove potential conflict - but it is one of the greatest factors that other users of the countryside get energised about - and they can make even bigger conflicts for the organisers to sort), sounds interesting,

Deryk

[aawil]

hi deryk and charlie its a pity that a lot of modern riders and course plotters have not had the experience of a real classic trial such as the tour of islwyn , how about a long section with two subs , with just a set of begins cards and a set of ends about 1/4 mile further up all in a natural rocky gully ridden by all classes including s/cars , maybe todays riders would have problems deciding which line to use without loads of tapes and markers to show them the way , i would still love to scrutineer some of the bikes , i think i will voulenteer my services to the t.a.l.m.a.g. next year that would be putting something back into the sport, after a quick stay in hospital i will be back riding my 197cc greeves outfit in a few events later in the year just me and a 56lb weight bolted in the chair as ballast , at last a passenger who does not moan when we are upside down, cheap classic trials total cost to build an award winning genuine pre 65 outfit £785, cheers for now ,, will ,