Another Blow To Super Cub Trials Projects.

[laird387]

Hi,

I learned about section marking at the Victory Trial in 1957. With some friends we had volunteered to observe at a group of four sections which had been marked out the day before.

When we arrived some local comedians who disagreed with bikes 'scrambling in the countryside' had removed a complete set of markers from one of the sections, it was an old fashioned trial, around 70 miles around, with a route card with directions and the list of the numbers of sections and subs in each group. We knew that if we left the section out many riders would mill round looking for the 'lost' section, so I put a set of Begins at the entrance to a field that led back to the road, and a set of Ends at the gate back on to the road, about two hundred yards away.

When the riders arrived they asked "Where do we go?", we told them; "In through the Begins and out through the Ends and no stopping in between."

Some parked their bikes and wandered round the almost flat field, then came back to their bikes to take their turn. We recorded several dabs against riders with heavy feet - and took a three off a works rider...........

That's when I realised, it is all in the mind, the markers just help to add to the natural confusion........

Enjoy.

[john collins]

There seem to be many posts on this subject which seem to be getting quite a few people embroiled in various arguments, innuendo and accusation.

In my opinion the most sensible post expresses the opinion that it is time everyone just got on with enjoying the actual riding of the trials, stopped moaning about what everyone else is doing and based the result of how many times they stopped or put foot down, which is what we all thought trials was about surely?

Unfortunately there is also a fair bit of miss information circulating, and perhaps it is worth putting this correct:

There were changes made to the Sammy Miller series for 2015 and the intention was as stated in italics in the PR which was circulated and which I paste below.

While the intention as stated, was perhaps good, the inclusion of the 50 machines etc was not so good and this attempt at sorting one problem resulted in causing more.

So for 2015 - note the date. The part in bold was introduced.

People need to actually read this, but also note what the last para states i.e that a complete review will take place for 2016. Therefore for 2015 we will have to work with what we have, which I will come back to later.

Re – 2016 – yes there will be a review and we will have some ideas

Will it solve all the problems and make everyone happy ? Doubtful , More chance of a lottery win.

Why- Because too many want a set of regulations, as long as they suit them.

Do not take my word for it , just look back over the posts on such matters past and present and it is very easy to see the diversity of opinion.

When we introduced a Special Class that many are suggesting – we had complaints Some riders who we would probably regard as riding “ Specials” insisted on circumnavigating the rules to continue riding in the original classes?

Pot hunters ? Probably. The problem with a Special class is defining exactly what is a “ Special” and what is not, and as I have stated some who certainly should know better take a delight in finding a loophole

BEWARE : All this may be controversial stuff may be fun for some – BUT the real problem that some others have sensibly mentioned, is that all this is likely to pee- off organisers and it eventually will.

Any organiser of any trial knows how much work is involved, finding a venue, marking the sections, finding Observers, producing results and so on, to make at the end of the day the cash they would achieve running a small boot sale. Those who like to comment on what everyone else should do, but never actually get involved in running an event in any shape or form or part of the problem not solution.

Wake up lads, you are going to put another nail in the coffin if you expect these hard working organisers to also examine machines in the minutest of details to determine if they belong in the class they have entered. These are Classic trials which are supposed to be enjoyable for all. It ain’t the TT.

For the pundits who at each and every opportunity have all the answers , why do not some of you volunteer to go to the events and be a specific Machine examiner. If we have volunteers I will try to set this up, including some expense for your travel. Any takers? That would make any 2016 review far easier.

japes 1275 comments about ACU being paid to sort all this out, merely shows how totally out of touch he really is and probably still believes in Father Xmas. If my payment from ACU totals enough for a pint during 2015 I will be absolutely delighted.

However I could be wrong, and he may have the answers, when he speaks about MSA regulations, great- lead by some example, produce your version of what should go in the ACU book – us highly paid bods will have an easy time just inserting it – job done. To make things easy, why not do as a few others have done

( unfortunately without that much agreement from others) ) on TC put down the definitive description of what the classes should be, and see if we can get some sort of agreement.

Back in the real world. We made changes to try to accommodate all. A silly article in the press tried to indicate that Jon Bliss was being prevented from riding etc

This was not true, and that is certainly not what is wanted. I actually applaud those who think a bit outside the box and try to produce something a bit different. I ride one. The question really is does a particular machine fit into the existing Championship classes. For any machines that did not we introduced the two Non Championship classes , one on each route so that no-one was refused a ride. We will examine all this again for 2016.

Iis it not time we had a bit of self discipline in our sport. We are mostly at an age where we should be leading by example. Does it really necessitate all this aggravation and conjecture as to if a bike has this or that. We have two routes - A & B determining severity. Just enter one of them, and if anyone has any doubts about the validity of their own bike, just enter the Non Championship class and enjoy your day. The results sheet will show how you fared against others , and after all is that not all we really require

Now as below for 215 and so there can be no doubt

For Classes 3 & 6 : Twinshock, Drum Brakes and not eligible for Class 2 or 5 respectively

AND AN ORIGINAL OR REPLICA /SILHOUETTE FRAME OF A MACHIME COMMECIALLY AVAILABLE AND ADVERTISED PRIOR TO 1990.

The twin shock and drum brakes should be easy to determine. The latter is where it gets controversial – perhaps. If it “ looks” like the machine it purports to represent – we can regard it as a replica/ silhouette

If it does not – or just has a bit if it looks like the original – it cannot be deemed to be a replica/ silhouette

Therefore, it must follow a machime not complying with these three things must go into Non Championship class, either on Route A or Rouite B

Enjoyable day out, but no Championship points

John Collins

Chairman ACU T & E

The intention of the amendments made to the classes of the ACU Sammy Miller Trial Championship was an attempt to bring the classes of Twinshock machines, which often had the Replica or Silhouette descriptions, into line with the other British Bike classes which have been in existence for many years. The desire was, and still is, to prevent modern mono machines being converted to Twinshocks and also to confirm that a Replica should be just that i.e a Replica of something previously made and in line with the overall philosophy of the Series. The age of a rider, capacity of any particular machine is not a relevant argument against this attempt.

However it does appear that the introduction of the words “50 machines” has caused concern and therefore for 2015 the criteria for CLASSES 3 & 6 will be:

For machines with twin-shock rear suspension and drum brakes as at the time of manufacture which are not eligible for class 2 and 5. All machines must have original frames or have replica/silhouette frames of machines that were commercially available and advertised prior to 1990.

Additional Non Championship Twin-shock Specials Class: For machines with twin-shock rear suspension and drum brakes which are not eligible for Classes 3 and 6. This class is intended for competitors to enjoy the principle of this Series with specials which are not eligible.

This additional class will be included on both Route A and Route B

PLEASE NOTE: FOR 2016 IT IS INTENDED THAT A COMPLETE REVIEW OF ALL THE CLASSES WILL BE UNDERTAKEN AS THE TRIALS AND ENDURO COMMITTEE REMAIN OF THE VIEW THAT THE ORIGINAL PHILOSOPHY OF THIS SERIES IS BEING LOST AND NEEDS EXAMINATION.

[gasserguy]

Nice to see some clarification. I guess both the pit bikes that entered the twin shock classes will be moved into class 7 or be disqualified from Sunday's Sammy Miller round and in fiture treat the series with some degree of respect to what is was originally set out to be!

Edited March 31, 2015 by gasserguy

[wallo]

John, are you related to the Pete Collins, trials legend from the South West?

Please put me down as a machine examiner, PM me with the details, really looking forward to helping out.

[wallo]

Sorry, one final point.

Is all of this really important given news like this?

http://news.sky.com/story/1456029/one-direction-fury-at-zayn-malik-solo-demo

[charlie prescott]

Hi Guy's,

Hi Wallo,

Now we do need these guy's onboard , And I have been sharpening up on my acoustic tonight.

Regards Charlie.

[charlie prescott]

Hi Guy’s.

John,

I do so hope that at the end of the season and a review of the ruling are considered.

You will keep in mind the plight of the Super Cub Trials engined machines.

I built my machine as an entry-level way into the sport for a novice, or junior rider.

And again for a more mature person that loved their trial riding but through health related problems would still like to compete on a machine more suitable to their condition and age.

They were also designed to compete on the more gentle Classic type of section, and not be lumped into a Modern type trial with the severity of sections that are not considered the machines were designed for.

Perhaps a separate Class is the way forward for these machines in a Classic trials situation.

This then may satisfy the discontent that seems to be aimed at these little machines at present.

Regards Charlie.

[suzuki250]

A classic trial with modern Chinese engines and wheels, not for me…!

Maybe you should ask for a class with the modern trials events?

[john collins]

Charlie Prescott:

Yes - I tend to agree with you. And we intend to look across all classes.

BUT - the problem is ( and always seems to have been) trying to cater for all in what was initially a Classic or actually PRE 65 BRITISH series.

As stated clearly above we intend to review the whole think toward the end of 2015 , and those with definite views on what classes should be now have plenty of chance to post on this site and see if they can get some agreement, and we can take note

However - please remember while I am Chairman of T & E , I am one voice and we are a total of 8 and these must all have a say and will no doubt, like all the contributors to these posts have different views. This is as it should be, and I hope always will be.

It would actually be a pretty boring world if we all thought the same

One of my own personnel opinions is that it cannot be logical that people can compete on highly modified Spanish/ Italian bikes ( and I am a Bultaco arch enthusiast of 40 plus years) but if someone takes a Chinese engine ( God forbid) and makes something around it - then it is not OK

We need to sort some classes to take account of this

However, unfortunately what often happens, is people make or buy a bike - and I have already said I applaud innovation - but then expect classes to be altered to cater for them . The correct method would probably be to look at classes first and proceed from there, or try to persuade us and everyone that classes should be altered well before a season staerts

Classic Trials are not alone in this dilema. KTM produced an excellent 144cc Enduro bike. So did TM

There was no class in any British Enduro Championship for those who bought them to ride it in - they had a bike they could not ride, at least not in Championships, and while we have now eventually altered classes to allow them in, it was once again wrong way round. Indeed in European and World Enduro inc Indoor Enduro there is still no class/no ride for a 144cc machine

So, message is really, yes things have to be looked at but cart before horse rarely works out for anyone

[metisse]

This subject reminds me of a saying that always tickles me...Just because a dog is born in a stable, doesn t make it an horse....

[old trials fanatic]

Or "it's only the hairs on a gooseberry that stop it from being a grape". Or more appropriately for the subject of the post "you cant polish a turd"

[suzuki250]

"you cant polish a turd"

But you can roll it in glitter

Edited April 3, 2015 by suzuki250

[old trials fanatic]

I darent ask

[spudsdad]

charlie i have followed this topic with intrest and regulary check out the otter bsa website as i find it very informative and a good read, as far as the super cub go s i think its a great bike especilly the john bliss version , would love one myself.

can see your reason behind it and why youre so passionate about it but why get so hung up about it being a classic trials bike or being eligable in classic trials?

just enjoy it in club trials or twinshock class

[mickwren]

Jon Bliss knew he was taking the p*** when he built the bike. He deliberately went out to create something that looks even on a dark night like NOTHING ever sold