Icmtr Pre 65 Trials Rules

[ttspud]

As a quick summary of the posts on the thread, the overwhelming consensus on this board seems to be 'We do not mind losing all genuine pre-65 bikes from pre-65 trials, we just want to ride what we want, and see no problem in that. All sports progress and that, to us, is progression in this one'.  Of course, I disagree as a minority here also do.

 

To clarify the original 'ICMTR Pre-65 Trials Rules' subject of the thread for those who were not involved, the ICMTR rules have been very carefully developed, they are a best start and are subject to further tightening if necessary, with some good points put forward here, but they are absolutely unambiguous and so enforcable, scrutineering will be developed appropriately, the rules do not exclude modified bikes, they include original bikes in a fair way through sub-classes allowing them to enjoy competing on the same routes as any other bike in the trial and competing against similar original machinery.

 

[Adding a little more]  Answering my own queries from the original thread a year ago, Deryk's original rules do exist in the ACU handbook, and are good rules, but they have not been enforced since the mid 80s seemingly beginning with the Sammy Miller series and now are unusable because there are very few bikes, being entered versus existing, now that conform to them.  Effectively then the sport has no rules in place and the sport cannot go back to Deryk's rules without losing many current riders and their bikes or placing many in the 'Specials' class en masse, which is obviously undesirable.  And with no rules, being forced to accept such a huge disadvantage, riders of original machinery will continue to stay at home whilst their bikes are left without a competition to enter, which is undesirable also.

 

So, what is the motivation for the ICMTR rules?; to have rules which fairly include the currently uncompetitive originals (some to none in the northern events, slowly losing them also from southern events following the same path) so that those riders continue or can come back, and to include the modifieds alongside them but in separate, still competitive, sub-classes.  Any competitive sport must have sport-wide rules, currently pre65 trials effectively does not.  And the only way in which that will happen is if rules can cater for both types of bike, the common modified, and the rarer original.  The ICMTR rules do that very well.

 

In terms of where the line is drawn.  Should 'original' sub-class bikes be absolutely as they left the factory?  No, some alterations were done then on the grounds of practicality and are still a good choice now, such as tyres, rims, handlebars, exhaust routing and levers.  Added to that have been the rear shocks, front fork internals and the Amal 1 carb.  That is the flavour of the sub-class not the precise rules, the published rules are precise and include the complete detail of parts allowed.  The result is not exactly as it left the factory but is 'in the spirit of' pre65 bikes, and a world away from that which is accepted as a pre65 bike today in the modified sub-class.  As needs repeating, the rules benefit the sport and do not exclude any current bike or any current rider.  No modified bike is being further excluded or moved out of their existing class. 

 

If riders wish to ride carbon Ariels in modern sections, that is the concern of the club and that will not be affected.  What will change is the protection and perhaps return of original riders and original bikes under rules which allow that to occur in clubs who recognise what has happened and wish to see a truer representation of pre-65 trials exist for riders and spectators alike.  It is of course no issue for clubs that see no problem, or see too much risk, or like things as they are, they can continue to run as they see fit, and that seems to be the viewpoint of many here representing northern clubs, and so vehement and upset as many here became, I saw fit to close the discussion, and failing to do so, in the light of the earlier thread repeating the same points, it was best simply to remove the rules up for discussion, and contentious posts, from here entirely.

 

Ask Greeves made a very salient point: "the days of 'in the spirit of the class' are well and truly gone."  He is right, for the majority on this board, that is correct. But I do not agree that it is correct for all others nor for all other clubs.

 

To save the trouble of going over all this again, and for the majority on this board who disagree, 'RIP Pre65 circa 1984'. And for anyone else who wants to get involved or help, watch this space.

 

All the best,

TTSpud

Edited May 3, 2015 by ttspud

[windlestone1]

So you would allow tubeless rims and tyres!

There is no mention of electronic ignition, I doubt you'd find many machines still with points.

[japes1275]

I like the fact smelly 2 strokes aren't allowed!

But I wouldn't be happy having to modify my bike from original by fitting a concentric carb to ride in the 'O' class.

[japes1275]

Ah, I get it now, cheers

I'm all for some proper rules to keep it fair for the more original bikes - getting everyone to agree is where the problem lies!

What or who is the ICMTR by the way? Forgive my ignorance if I should already know!

[b40rt]

Amal 1.5 on environmental grounds ?

[charlie prescott]

Hi Guys,

Ensign 400x19 trials tyres are available along with tubes etc!!!
Perhaps this should be a stipulation to any class ? That these tyres should be used??

Look you know where I stand on this subject!!
And have done my best , and spent a considerable ,amount of time and money.
Trying to revive a Class of trial for this type of Four Stroke Trials bike.
? And there is no need for it to be extreamly l competitive .

But every time I have asked for a show of hands for a return of this event, I get Nothing.

I know we are only a few on this web site , so can only expect a few to confirm.

But I spent four months phoning competitors personally, trying to get an entry for the event.then having to compromise at the last minute ,to get an entry big enough ,to put on a show.

So what is the point in trying to even think about setting up even one trial ,let alone a series, when you get this reaction??

What makes it much more annoying is the fact that we know riders and machines are out there for what could be a brilliant event, with the side shows ETC . If every one that was at the TALMAG this last week end for instance entered . Then you would have a unbelievable event in the summer months.

But has I say No response !! Ah well.


Regards Charlie "Proper Bikes".

• Quote
• MultiQuote
• Delete
• Edit

[charlie prescott]

Hi.

Going back to the wheel situation.

You may find that a lot of people with original Pre 65 pre unit bikes do not want to replace the original 19" rear wheel with a 18"? or the bike would then not be Original would it.

I for one would like to get out on one of our Ariel HT5's but I would be on an instant disadvantage with bikes fitted with 18" wheels would I not ? And there is no way we are going to change them.

There is just so many things to consider with rules, and most people think they are just there to be broken, or find an excuse why they should not exist.

Good Luck, but I have been there before.

Regards Charlie.

[old trials fanatic]

Have any of you tried these 19" so called trials tyres ? Slicks more like. Read all the above and it's even more confusing to me than the current situation. All very pre65 when it suits but not when it doesnt. Amal Mk 1 ? isnt even P65. Fork internals shock ANY ? i can see the market retooling for 38mm and above modern internals as we speak.

Good luck to you reinventing the wheel but dont count me in it sounds a total load of bo****ks to me sorry but it does.

[ask greeves]

Mr TT Spud, Looks as if you've put loadsa effort into these posts. Although I sympathise with the majority of your comments, surely the overidding factor is you can't turn back time, the complete sport of trials is always shifting, maybe not in the best direction, but nature compensates, good things progress, and in the end bad things disapear. More and more regulation, isn't in my opinion going to help the situation and the days of "in the spirit of the class" are well and truly gone, Hopefully all the bling expensive bikes will end up as trophies in peoples front rooms, talking points to impress the next door neighbour, and eventually broken up and the pre 65 content returned to it's rightfull place, in genuine pre 65 bikes. On the other hand, trials riders have always modified thier bikes, nobody complained when SM put titanium spidles in GOV, although when I own it, they had been removed, the story being that Jock W had put all the "trick" bits in the No 2 bike. Nobody complained at the beautifully modified Greeves that Don Smith used to prepare and ride, rather people would admire the workmanship, so what has changed, Seems to me a "cottage" industry has evolved, where you can spend money, just as deep as your pocket, and if "thats what turns you on" so be it......or in the words of Harry Enfield "i've got piles".

[totalshell]

i d like to ask for evidence of a 450 pre65 bike entry for a trial please and equally evidence of a 240 pre 65 bike trial that has now reduced to just 150

i believe your vision of a falling entry ever more diverse pre 65 scene is wrong. we ran a trial last week that was full over a month before entries closed, a more disparate mix of bikes has never been seen. a wider age range of riders has equally never been achieved.

the sections have undoubtedly become harder bikes have become more complex not all but some and sadly many original riders have left us as age takes its toll.

classic motorcycle sport chose unlike vintage car sport to allow modifications unlimited virtually and the differences are stark. vinatge car sport is elitist ( i know, i am amongst them) and expensive beyond anything we on our humble pre65 can think of and yet bikes that were aquired or built for sveral hundreds of pounds can now be forund to be worth several thousands and many working class and retired riders may well question the sanity of throwing them at rocks in these austere times they can be sold for many times what we originally aquired them for.

Deryks original rules still stand tall and the read remarkable similar to the countries premier pre65 club any thing else is a discussion point and nothing more the above suggestions already have ifs buts and maybes.. alloy rims or sizes that were never available fo the bike whilst in production.. and who would scrutineer such a bike. in a club as large as Yorks classic i know of only half a dozen blokes qualified to fill the role competantly and would they want to.. not on your life.. they ve better things to do on a sunday morning than argue the authenticity of a widget on a 1959 fandango.

Edited March 30, 2015 by totalshell

[b40rt]

"The Edinburgh club decided maybe they could have an additional source of income if they added one of 'these pre-65 things, whatever they were', as a sideshow in Kinlochleven schoolyard on the day before the weigh-in for the SSDT, and in 1984 started their complete misunderstanding of the problems from the outset.........."

The first old British bike trial at Kinlochleven was during the SSDT, in an attempt to ease congestion for the Thursday (?) peninsular run. The rest is history to be re-written as you so wish.

Edited March 31, 2015 by b40rt

[alan]

I wish you good luck in your endeavour, however the situation in Yorkshire seems much healthier. Yorkshire Classic had over 160 riders on the results sheets last year, all club members. If you include the captains trial which is open to non-members this swells to over 200, mainly within a 20 mile radius of Keighley.

Interestingly, the least well supported trials are the "big bike trials" designed to attract the older riders on more original machines.

Conversely the best supported trials are those with a reputation for being on the more difficult side, and these naturally attract the highly modified machinery.

The profit from these trials goes to support the big bike trials that run at a finance loss, despite all the organisers, observers and most land owners doing every thing for free.

The club remains in a financially healthy position so must be doing something right.

The machine examiners are fairly pragmatic, but do intervene when someone is clearly taking the mickey.

And yes, there are some anomalies in the club rules, but these were voted in by the membership, and can be voted out by the membership at the annual AGM.

Edited March 31, 2015 by alan

[alan]

i do not believe that simply saying that Yorkshire Trials being so successful with an array of different classes and machines, having very few big bikes, is any marker of either successful rules or a healthy sport unless you view the big bikes and their riders as an inconvenience to the sport as a whole.

I think you are missing the point, the big bike riders are not out there in the numbers you imagine. Look at the club video's from the 90's.. many of the riders on big bikes then are still riding now, but are all now in their 60's or older. Even a steady trial is a work out on a big bike, and a simple mistake can lead to a big injury. The older riders are choosing light weight bikes in order to carry on riding. The real problem is that there aren't many "young" riders coming in to replace the older riders. The natural progression is for riders to come from twin shock or modern trials as they get older, neither of these disciplines would lead to a rider to choose a big bike. Yorkshire Classic has a couple of very young members on big bikes, but these are the exception rather than the rule. The club does not see big bikes as an inconvenience, in fact quite the contrary. The pre-unit trials are aimed at the big bikes, but would not be financially viable without the support of the non-competitive lightweight machines. As stated previously the bike bike trials are run at a loss, which the club accepts to keep as many of these bikes turning out as possible.

[wallo]

Phew, this is all very confusing, and to be honest, all I want to do is ride my bike at the weekend, and fettle for the next weekend if work permits during the week.

We aren't going to be world champs the next Toni Bou, Steve Allen or Jon Cull so just get the bikes out, choose the route that's best for you and enjoy it.

Why worry what everyone else is doing, it's not worth it, enjoy what you have, make the most of it, simples........

See you all at the Red Marley trail this Sunday

[old trials fanatic]

Or stop spending a fortune trying to buy success - and enjoy riding proper bikes................

From what i remember and a recent test ride there was nothing enjoyable about riding what some including Deryk and TT spud consider "proper bikes" lets face it if they were so good why could people not wait to get rid of them. THEY WERE AWFUL AND THEY STILL ARE ! ok if your penchant is for masochism then fine but dont forget to book the Monday off work to visit the A&E dept. I love my sport and have been riding since 1967 when i first started on a Greeves Scottish and the only reason i wish i still had that bike is so i could sell it for the ridiculous sum that they seem to command from anoraks out there. Plus whats all these references to spectators ? Who cares Trials is not and never should be about spectators. The only spectators we should give a damn about are the ones holding a board who record our score any others unless they want to pay for the privilege are irrelevant. IMHO of course