Icmtr Pre 65 Trials Rules

[ttspud]

As a quick summary of the posts on the thread, the overwhelming consensus on this board seems to be 'We do not mind losing all genuine pre-65 bikes from pre-65 trials, we just want to ride what we want, and see no problem in that. All sports progress and that, to us, is progression in this one'.  Of course, I disagree as a minority here also do.

 

To clarify the original 'ICMTR Pre-65 Trials Rules' subject of the thread for those who were not involved, the ICMTR rules have been very carefully developed, they are a best start and are subject to further tightening if necessary, with some good points put forward here, but they are absolutely unambiguous and so enforcable, scrutineering will be developed appropriately, the rules do not exclude modified bikes, they include original bikes in a fair way through sub-classes allowing them to enjoy competing on the same routes as any other bike in the trial and competing against similar original machinery.

 

[Adding a little more]  Answering my own queries from the original thread a year ago, Deryk's original rules do exist in the ACU handbook, and are good rules, but they have not been enforced since the mid 80s seemingly beginning with the Sammy Miller series and now are unusable because there are very few bikes, being entered versus existing, now that conform to them.  Effectively then the sport has no rules in place and the sport cannot go back to Deryk's rules without losing many current riders and their bikes or placing many in the 'Specials' class en masse, which is obviously undesirable.  And with no rules, being forced to accept such a huge disadvantage, riders of original machinery will continue to stay at home whilst their bikes are left without a competition to enter, which is undesirable also.

 

So, what is the motivation for the ICMTR rules?; to have rules which fairly include the currently uncompetitive originals (some to none in the northern events, slowly losing them also from southern events following the same path) so that those riders continue or can come back, and to include the modifieds alongside them but in separate, still competitive, sub-classes.  Any competitive sport must have sport-wide rules, currently pre65 trials effectively does not.  And the only way in which that will happen is if rules can cater for both types of bike, the common modified, and the rarer original.  The ICMTR rules do that very well.

 

In terms of where the line is drawn.  Should 'original' sub-class bikes be absolutely as they left the factory?  No, some alterations were done then on the grounds of practicality and are still a good choice now, such as tyres, rims, handlebars, exhaust routing and levers.  Added to that have been the rear shocks, front fork internals and the Amal 1 carb.  That is the flavour of the sub-class not the precise rules, the published rules are precise and include the complete detail of parts allowed.  The result is not exactly as it left the factory but is 'in the spirit of' pre65 bikes, and a world away from that which is accepted as a pre65 bike today in the modified sub-class.  As needs repeating, the rules benefit the sport and do not exclude any current bike or any current rider.  No modified bike is being further excluded or moved out of their existing class. 

 

If riders wish to ride carbon Ariels in modern sections, that is the concern of the club and that will not be affected.  What will change is the protection and perhaps return of original riders and original bikes under rules which allow that to occur in clubs who recognise what has happened and wish to see a truer representation of pre-65 trials exist for riders and spectators alike.  It is of course no issue for clubs that see no problem, or see too much risk, or like things as they are, they can continue to run as they see fit, and that seems to be the viewpoint of many here representing northern clubs, and so vehement and upset as many here became, I saw fit to close the discussion, and failing to do so, in the light of the earlier thread repeating the same points, it was best simply to remove the rules up for discussion, and contentious posts, from here entirely.

 

Ask Greeves made a very salient point: "the days of 'in the spirit of the class' are well and truly gone."  He is right, for the majority on this board, that is correct. But I do not agree that it is correct for all others nor for all other clubs.

 

To save the trouble of going over all this again, and for the majority on this board who disagree, 'RIP Pre65 circa 1984'. And for anyone else who wants to get involved or help, watch this space.

 

All the best,

TTSpud

Edited May 3, 2015 by ttspud

[windlestone1]

So you would allow tubeless rims and tyres!

There is no mention of electronic ignition, I doubt you'd find many machines still with points.

[japes1275]

I like the fact smelly 2 strokes aren't allowed!

But I wouldn't be happy having to modify my bike from original by fitting a concentric carb to ride in the 'O' class.

[japes1275]

Ah, I get it now, cheers

I'm all for some proper rules to keep it fair for the more original bikes - getting everyone to agree is where the problem lies!

What or who is the ICMTR by the way? Forgive my ignorance if I should already know!

[b40rt]

Amal 1.5 on environmental grounds ?

[charlie prescott]

Hi Guys,

Ensign 400x19 trials tyres are available along with tubes etc!!!
Perhaps this should be a stipulation to any class ? That these tyres should be used??

Look you know where I stand on this subject!!
And have done my best , and spent a considerable ,amount of time and money.
Trying to revive a Class of trial for this type of Four Stroke Trials bike.
? And there is no need for it to be extreamly l competitive .

But every time I have asked for a show of hands for a return of this event, I get Nothing.

I know we are only a few on this web site , so can only expect a few to confirm.

But I spent four months phoning competitors personally, trying to get an entry for the event.then having to compromise at the last minute ,to get an entry big enough ,to put on a show.

So what is the point in trying to even think about setting up even one trial ,let alone a series, when you get this reaction??

What makes it much more annoying is the fact that we know riders and machines are out there for what could be a brilliant event, with the side shows ETC . If every one that was at the TALMAG this last week end for instance entered . Then you would have a unbelievable event in the summer months.

But has I say No response !! Ah well.


Regards Charlie "Proper Bikes".

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[charlie prescott]

Hi.

Going back to the wheel situation.

You may find that a lot of people with original Pre 65 pre unit bikes do not want to replace the original 19" rear wheel with a 18"? or the bike would then not be Original would it.

I for one would like to get out on one of our Ariel HT5's but I would be on an instant disadvantage with bikes fitted with 18" wheels would I not ? And there is no way we are going to change them.

There is just so many things to consider with rules, and most people think they are just there to be broken, or find an excuse why they should not exist.

Good Luck, but I have been there before.

Regards Charlie.

[old trials fanatic]

Have any of you tried these 19" so called trials tyres ? Slicks more like. Read all the above and it's even more confusing to me than the current situation. All very pre65 when it suits but not when it doesnt. Amal Mk 1 ? isnt even P65. Fork internals shock ANY ? i can see the market retooling for 38mm and above modern internals as we speak.

Good luck to you reinventing the wheel but dont count me in it sounds a total load of bo****ks to me sorry but it does.

[ask greeves]

Mr TT Spud, Looks as if you've put loadsa effort into these posts. Although I sympathise with the majority of your comments, surely the overidding factor is you can't turn back time, the complete sport of trials is always shifting, maybe not in the best direction, but nature compensates, good things progress, and in the end bad things disapear. More and more regulation, isn't in my opinion going to help the situation and the days of "in the spirit of the class" are well and truly gone, Hopefully all the bling expensive bikes will end up as trophies in peoples front rooms, talking points to impress the next door neighbour, and eventually broken up and the pre 65 content returned to it's rightfull place, in genuine pre 65 bikes. On the other hand, trials riders have always modified thier bikes, nobody complained when SM put titanium spidles in GOV, although when I own it, they had been removed, the story being that Jock W had put all the "trick" bits in the No 2 bike. Nobody complained at the beautifully modified Greeves that Don Smith used to prepare and ride, rather people would admire the workmanship, so what has changed, Seems to me a "cottage" industry has evolved, where you can spend money, just as deep as your pocket, and if "thats what turns you on" so be it......or in the words of Harry Enfield "i've got piles".

[totalshell]

i d like to ask for evidence of a 450 pre65 bike entry for a trial please and equally evidence of a 240 pre 65 bike trial that has now reduced to just 150

i believe your vision of a falling entry ever more diverse pre 65 scene is wrong. we ran a trial last week that was full over a month before entries closed, a more disparate mix of bikes has never been seen. a wider age range of riders has equally never been achieved.

the sections have undoubtedly become harder bikes have become more complex not all but some and sadly many original riders have left us as age takes its toll.

classic motorcycle sport chose unlike vintage car sport to allow modifications unlimited virtually and the differences are stark. vinatge car sport is elitist ( i know, i am amongst them) and expensive beyond anything we on our humble pre65 can think of and yet bikes that were aquired or built for sveral hundreds of pounds can now be forund to be worth several thousands and many working class and retired riders may well question the sanity of throwing them at rocks in these austere times they can be sold for many times what we originally aquired them for.

Deryks original rules still stand tall and the read remarkable similar to the countries premier pre65 club any thing else is a discussion point and nothing more the above suggestions already have ifs buts and maybes.. alloy rims or sizes that were never available fo the bike whilst in production.. and who would scrutineer such a bike. in a club as large as Yorks classic i know of only half a dozen blokes qualified to fill the role competantly and would they want to.. not on your life.. they ve better things to do on a sunday morning than argue the authenticity of a widget on a 1959 fandango.

Edited March 30, 2015 by totalshell

[laird387]

Have any of you tried these 19" so called trials tyres ? Slicks more like. Read all the above and it's even more confusing to me than the current situation. All very pre65 when it suits but not when it doesnt. Amal Mk 1 ? isnt even P65. Fork internals shock ANY ? i can see the market retooling for 38mm and above modern internals as we speak.

Good luck to you reinventing the wheel but dont count me in it sounds a total load of bo****ks to me sorry but it does.

Hi,

Interestingly the minor controversy over the 18" or 19" rear wheels on pre-65 machinery ignores the fact that at the time we created the earliest pre-65 trials the ONLY manufacturer offering a trials tyre at that particular time for general sale to the public, Dunlop, withdrew the 4.00 x 19 Trials Universal cover from the catalogue because all the British two-stroke trials machine manufacturers had specified 4.00 x 18 rears, so there was, it was stated, "no demand".

So most of us were forced on to 18 rims if we wanted to continue riding..............

But then the world spun round a few more times - and it all changed again.

However, conveniently forgetting the actual correct history doesn't actually change it...............

Enjoy.

[laird387]

Well, the latter figures relate to a very prominent Pre 65 event attracting an international entry that has been running since the 80s and for which my family has about 20 of the catalogues running through the years, so the figures for that are absolutely accurate.

The former figure of 450 was mentioned by Deryk during a similar discussion on this board, but for the exact dates and locations of those events you would have to ask him. I suspect they were from a series many decades ago.

These figures are from events which cater only for Pre 65, pre-unit, British four strokes. And it is in these classes where the differences between an original bike and a modified are most prominent.

That is great.

I do not know what rules you refer to with regard to Deryk, you would have to post them. And with the 'premier' Pre 65 club, I assume you are referring to the Scottish Pre 65 who may not currently have an issue with entry, but they do seem to have an issue with ever-increasingly modified bikes leading to an event which increasingly excludes, or completely excludes, original bikes. However, if that is the direction that they feel is right, and their events are popular, then great.

Yes, well, the rules as set out are unambiguous. 1959 is fine. A widget is an usual thing to find on a Pre 65, as is a particularly energetic and exciting Spanish dance, if memory serves me, in a strange 3/4 time. If you could produce such a thing, then I am sure that it would gain a lot of laughs!

The figure of 450 entries refers to the early years of the British Bike championship, which later became the Sammy Miller championship, when I was the series coordinator for the series and maintained a complete spreadsheet of all the riders and the events that they entered so that they could be granted their awards at the end of each year, as each rider who had completed the requisite number of rounds gained an award (the number of rounds for qualification varied over the early years as the number of eligible rounds being offered by clubs increased, typically it was seven out of the twelve, and for most of the ears there were six hundred riders on the spreadsheet - with 450 gaining the end of year award.

Anybody who thinks the Scottish Pre-65 is the premier event just doesn't understand pre-65 trials. Remember they didn't even start a pre-65 event until fourteen years after the first trial that we ever ran, the Bigger Banger trial that became the Shawforth Shake the following year.

My only regret - that when I coined the term "Pre-65" in my column in TMX several years later, I didn't register it so that I could collect royalties.............

Enjoy,

Deryk Wylde

[laird387]

Hi,

I will repeat the copy of the original pre-65 rules, I say original because I coined the phrase 'pre-65', organised the first ever trial exclusively for our old British bikes - and coordinated the original British Bike Championship..............

"

pre-65 rules.pdf

[laird387]

Hi ttspud,

I can't give you an exact date as to when that set of rules was created, but I can tell you that they were created for the A-CU trials and Rallies committee when they decided to make the Sammy Miller series their own national competition.

I started the British Bike championship when I was writing columns and features for the long defunct British Bike Magazine - who had given me a set of awards known as the British Bike awards. For that championship, created in about 1973, I had insisted that both A-CU and AMCA clubs could organise events in the series and that they must allow members to compete in ALL of the events. Don Green and Carole of the AMCA were entirely pragmatic and created the BMCA, for their members who wanted to ride in classic events and co-opted me on to the organising committee (mainly because as the AMCA they were involved in international motocross - so had to be careful about compatible rules). They arranged full insurance cover for the series, for both A-CU and BMCA members and were entirely helpful. Does the fact that BMCA still exists and still organises events give you a clue...............

Then Sammy offered sponsorship and the A-CU wanted to break away and form the Sammy Miller series to get their hands on the money, that was about 1984, and that was when I gave them that copy of the rules that we had been using and I was able to spend more time creating Off Road Review and publishing the various books that I published - bearing in mind I was also in full-time employment in electronics and communications at the time.

The Edinburgh club decided maybe they could have an additional source of income if they added one of 'these pre-65 things, whatever they were', as a sideshow in Kinlochleven schoolyard on the Thursday of the SSDT, and in 1984 started their complete misunderstanding of the problems from the outset..........

One final thought:

"Quote

My only regret - that when I coined the term "Pre-65" in my column in TMX several years later, I didn't register it so that I could collect royalties.............

Enjoy,

Thank you, yes, you would be a gazillionaire by now!!!"

But now I am a happy pensioner, very happy to be able to just record for posterity what actually went on - because I was there and heavily involved - and let all those who will do whatever they want - it is their life, not mine - all I want them to do is enjoy themselves................

Note: Correction added to the original Pre-65 Scottish note, thanks to Ross Thompson - I had forgotten it was on the Thursday, the following years it changed to the Saturday before the weigh-in. It also took many years persuading the committee to take it back out on the road, 'cos they felt nobody with an old pre-65 bike was bother with registration and insurance - the first year they gave in they had the biggest potential entry to that date - and never looked back since - as far as numbers are concerned.

Edited March 31, 2015 by laird387

[b40rt]

"The Edinburgh club decided maybe they could have an additional source of income if they added one of 'these pre-65 things, whatever they were', as a sideshow in Kinlochleven schoolyard on the day before the weigh-in for the SSDT, and in 1984 started their complete misunderstanding of the problems from the outset.........."

The first old British bike trial at Kinlochleven was during the SSDT, in an attempt to ease congestion for the Thursday (?) peninsular run. The rest is history to be re-written as you so wish.

Edited March 31, 2015 by b40rt