nigel dabster Posted May 13, 2015 Report Share Posted May 13, 2015 (edited) The simple facts are because there are insufficient regulations to constrain the development of lightweight very narrowly focussed bikes the sport is going down what is very likely a dead end road.GasGas with its lightweight engine is pretty well up the creek Ossa perhaps the most technically advanced bike with its EFI etc is far from a sales success Jotagas another avant garde type design only sells in small numbers. Trials bike sales as a whole are pretty well down - certainly not an unqualified success. The reasonably successful manufacturers Mont, Sherco and Beta are selling relatively traditional bikes. I wish DL and his backers every success but when the Vertigo was first announced it was clearly stated the aim was to win at the highest level, ie SSDT and WTC. A refined thoroughbred may be the best way to achieve this but that does not mean it will have the characteristics that make a good bike for lesser riders on a budget. The monoshock TY250 was perhaps they best ever club level bike but it won very little apart from the Scott at a higher level. Hold on there you go again making one and one equal 3. You arent really suggesting that gas gas's financial problems are down to a light bike are you? Sales are down as much as anything because the sport is reducing in size/popularity not because of any rules you may or may not agree with. Ossa has never been a success and that is because of various issues, ditto jtg but this is simply down to them not getting it right and proving the bike as Vertigo have done in the SSDT. Mont do not sell that many bikes so how are you measuring there success? Sherco and beta are really not that different to GG, and the most traditional of all which you seem to have deliberately omitted the ty engined scorpa was never a sales success at all. You are out of tune with the majority and its you who shouldnt pollute this and other threads with a diatribe of half truths and jumped to conclusions. Edited May 13, 2015 by nigel dabster Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
breagh Posted May 13, 2015 Report Share Posted May 13, 2015 The bikes may be a minor issue but lack of promotion of Trials is what's the matter. SSDT, going 100 years the public hasn't a clue about it. Plenty bikes in Fife these day's with good clubs with dealer back up and and there's other hotspots around the UK too. Said it before,lots of people want to ride trials they just don't know about it yet.. Managed to get my tissue paper Ossa round the SSDT on one set of rear pads. Pity I fried it on Tuesdays race and it knocked all the rest of the trial. Can't blame the bike though 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dadof2 Posted May 15, 2015 Report Share Posted May 15, 2015 The simple facts are because there are insufficient regulations to constrain the development of lightweight very narrowly focussed bikes the sport is going down what is very likely a dead end road.GasGas with its lightweight engine is pretty well up the creek Ossa perhaps the most technically advanced bike with its EFI etc is far from a sales success Jotagas another avant garde type design only sells in small numbers. Trials bike sales as a whole are pretty well down - certainly not an unqualified success. The reasonably successful manufacturers Mont, Sherco and Beta are selling relatively traditional bikes. I wish DL and his backers every success but when the Vertigo was first announced it was clearly stated the aim was to win at the highest level, ie SSDT and WTC. A refined thoroughbred may be the best way to achieve this but that does not mean it will have the characteristics that make a good bike for lesser riders on a budget. The monoshock TY250 was perhaps they best ever club level bike but it won very little apart from the Scott at a higher level. Hold on there you go again making one and one equal 3. You arent really suggesting that gas gas's financial problems are down to a light bike are you? Sales are down as much as anything because the sport is reducing in size/popularity not because of any rules you may or may not agree with. Ossa has never been a success and that is because of various issues, ditto jtg but this is simply down to them not getting it right and proving the bike as Vertigo have done in the SSDT. Mont do not sell that many bikes so how are you measuring there success? Sherco and beta are really not that different to GG, and the most traditional of all which you seem to have deliberately omitted the ty engined scorpa was never a sales success at all. You are out of tune with the majority and its you who shouldnt pollute this and other threads with a diatribe of half truths and jumped to conclusions. The GG Pro's light weight contributed to its lack of reliability, this in turn reduced the numbers sold, which reduced GG Motos profits and financial viability. "Sales are down etc" Poor bike quality, over specialisation and high prices are a factor in this. If I had included the Scopas (of any engine combination) I would have put them in the same group as JGas. People are often reluctant to buy from lower volume "one man band" type manufacturers irrespective of product quality or bike characteristics. As for who is responsible for polluting this SSDT thead, its was you and others who first brought up the bike weight / EFI / Electric water pump issue and asker where is Dadof2 and Copemech? People in glass houses ---- springs to mind. Remember Lancia - superb WRC cars, but a sales / business success? Whether the Vertigo is a Lancia or a Mk1 Escort only time will tell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
breagh Posted May 16, 2015 Report Share Posted May 16, 2015 Didn't see many UK built bikes at this years SSDT! In fact there was a grand total of Zero. Glass houses and all that. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve fracy Posted May 16, 2015 Report Share Posted May 16, 2015 Hmmm, how many unreliable GG's in this years SSDT? Manufacturers award! Well done Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
axulsuv Posted May 16, 2015 Report Share Posted May 16, 2015 (edited) D2 ... Have you ever driven a Lancia Statos ??? I've restored/refurbished 2 of them And to the best of my knowledge it was never meant to be a mass produced / consumed vehicle ... More like a build and sell enough of them to meet the homligation (sp?) regs of the time... I beleive they built about 490 of them ? And Porsche out financed them @ the time ... But the lancia's won the rally championship for 3 or 4 years in a row anyways ... PURPOSE BUILT VEHICLE !!! AKA no bearing on the trials market at all ... The TL125 is your escort , all the rest are thoroughbreds !!!! Go have a pint with Nigel and have a nice day .... Edited May 16, 2015 by axulsuv 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neils on wheels Posted May 17, 2015 Report Share Posted May 17, 2015 Hmmm, how many unreliable GG's in this years SSDT? Manufacturers award! Well done Plus the best first timer was won by the ever gentle Billy Bolt on a 125 Ossa. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neils on wheels Posted May 17, 2015 Report Share Posted May 17, 2015 (edited) To illustrate the point I will refer to a slightly different sport. I attended a 2 day cycle event recently, a mix of on and off road. Most of the bikes in the top group had 27 gears (3 x 9). More than 50% of this top group had trouble with damaged or jammed gear change mechanisms, One retired and several were left stuck in a single gear or with only a few gears available. Despite the great number of gears (initially available) all riders still had to push or carry the bikes up the steeper off road hills. Had all the bikes been single speed, fixed gear they would have been far more reliable and cheaper with no overall detriment to the enjoyment of the event. How recently? Mountain Bikers riding in a 'top group' having been using first 2x10 and now mostly 1x11 gear set ups for years. I think Shimano's last 3x9 XTR set-up was about 2009. I had 3x9 XTR on both my bikes for 4 or 5 years, so must have done a few thousand miles without any of the problems you mention. Anyone who has ever ridden a single speed for any distance on a hilly route will know it is a far from enjoyable experience! Edited May 17, 2015 by neils on wheels 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dadof2 Posted May 17, 2015 Report Share Posted May 17, 2015 (edited) The GGs at this years SSDT may have been reliable, I have not looked up the statistics. It is people (generally club level riders) experience over the past 10 years that is key. I have bought 5 trials bikes since 2002 and my previous trials bike was a very reliable GG contact. Had it not been for the GG Pros gearbox and other problems it is quite likely at least 3 of the 5 bikes I bought would have been GG. As it was I bought other makes. Plenty of other riders I know have made similar buying decisions. This adds up to a fair number of lost sales for GG. What happens at top level is of limited significance, its what happens week in , week out over a number of years in the hands of the bulk of riders. I have never driven a Lancia. I have driven plenty of Mk1 & 2 Escorts including rally prepared. The point I was making was that the Escort (I could add Mini) achieved both international rally success and large sales, whereas the Lancia was very specialised and sold in much lower numbers. Even if more had been made I doubt they would have been sold. Regarding the Vertigo I was neither criticising or praising the bike, I was just wondering what category history will place it in, Specialised but rare or a mass seller? Billy Bolt 125 Ossa - excellent SSDT result but will it persuade many to buy one? The TL 125 cannot be considered the trial equivalent of an escort, it was neither a top level winner nor mass seller. Bulto 325 or Ty250 monoshock is much more the Escorts equivalent. The off road cycling event was in the last few weeks, just amateur / local club so may not have had latest bikes. There could have been some 10x2 or 11x1 there that I did not notice. I was just acting as back up mechanic / course closer for the easier course group. The going was wet / soft, some on peat type soil with some rocks in it and some on boulder clay mixed with knobbly grass tussocks. The front dérailleur problems were mainly clay clogging. The rear dérailleurs were either clay clogged or damaged by striking on objects when the wheel sank into ruts or hitting the tussocks. A single speed bike like a BMX or Monty would have coped far better. It was the wet / soft conditions that caused the problem, same route used in previous years with nothing like this years problems. Part of the route has now been closed to 4 x 4s because of land damage. Edited May 17, 2015 by dadof2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
english electric Posted May 17, 2015 Report Share Posted May 17, 2015 I assumed going back to the rally car question they only needed to produce a max of 500 cars to qualify. even the the ultra rare escort RS1800 BDA[50 built I think ] etc were limited just to satisfy a so called production car criteria for the WRC . hence cars like the 6r4 lancia chevette HS/HSR lotus sunbeam etc bring mega bucks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigel dabster Posted May 18, 2015 Report Share Posted May 18, 2015 thought it was only 200 for homologation. Lancia not a sales success, they never rusted did they? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigel dabster Posted May 18, 2015 Report Share Posted May 18, 2015 The GGs at this years SSDT may have been reliable, I have not looked up the statistics. It is people (generally club level riders) experience over the past 10 years that is key. I have bought 5 trials bikes since 2002 and my previous trials bike was a very reliable GG contact. Had it not been for the GG Pros gearbox and other problems it is quite likely at least 3 of the 5 bikes I bought would have been GG. As it was I bought other makes. Plenty of other riders I know have made similar buying decisions. This adds up to a fair number of lost sales for GG. What happens at top level is of limited significance, its what happens week in , week out over a number of years in the hands of the bulk of riders. I have never driven a Lancia. I have driven plenty of Mk1 and 2 Escorts including rally prepared. The point I was making was that the Escort (I could add Mini) achieved both international rally success and large sales, whereas the Lancia was very specialised and sold in much lower numbers. Even if more had been made I doubt they would have been sold. Regarding the Vertigo I was neither criticising or praising the bike, I was just wondering what category history will place it in, Specialised but rare or a mass seller? Billy Bolt 125 Ossa - excellent SSDT result but will it persuade many to buy one? The TL 125 cannot be considered the trial equivalent of an escort, it was neither a top level winner nor mass seller. Bulto 325 or Ty250 monoshock is much more the Escorts equivalent. The off road cycling event was in the last few weeks, just amateur / local club so may not have had latest bikes. There could have been some 10x2 or 11x1 there that I did not notice. I was just acting as back up mechanic / course closer for the easier course group. The going was wet / soft, some on peat type soil with some rocks in it and some on boulder clay mixed with knobbly grass tussocks. The front dérailleur problems were mainly clay clogging. The rear dérailleurs were either clay clogged or damaged by striking on objects when the wheel sank into ruts or hitting the tussocks. A single speed bike like a BMX or Monty would have coped far better. It was the wet / soft conditions that caused the problem, same route used in previous years with nothing like this years problems. Part of the route has now been closed to 4 x 4s because of land damage. Another pile of crAAp. May have been reliable? THEY WERE in the SSDT, proof that your suggestions that they arent is totally false. Lost sales in your book most popular bike in reality. So the vertigo finishing the ssdt isnt of relevence? Its specialised its a trials bike a light one at that! No you couldnt add mini as they never made any money for BMC. Ossa's arent for sale so irrelevent how well Billy B did. Well done BB. A monty would have done as well ? really? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
axulsuv Posted May 18, 2015 Report Share Posted May 18, 2015 1 ; The escort was at one time the sales leader world wide ... (because Ford sold them cheap to utility companies , fleet vehicles and rental Co.'s ) It was a sound basic little car no more no less ... 2 ; The Escorts you refer to ( Rally cars , limited run option packages , etc.) Have nothing to do with the daily driver escort !!!! 3 ; The Honda TL125 was / is probably the sales leader EVER for a trials bike .... I'd be willing to bet there are more of them still running than most trials bike builders have ever built/sold ... 4 ;All of the new bikes we can buy now are made in small #'s , not most manufactures bread and butter ... Most of our trials bike builders make FANTASTIC Serious enduro bikes and other toys . 5 ; We are a extremely small market on a international business scale . CAN WE NOT BE HAPPY TO HAVE THE VERTIGO !!! It has proven itself on the international stage long before it's release to the public !!! To my knowledge none of the recent new brands have even attempted to do what Dougie and crew have DONE !!! 6 ; I hope them the very best in our market , and I'd love to try one ... Rant over .... Glenn 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigel dabster Posted May 19, 2015 Report Share Posted May 19, 2015 1 ; The escort was at one time the sales leader world wide ... (because Ford sold them cheap to utility companies , fleet vehicles and rental Co.'s ) It was a sound basic little car no more no less ... 2 ; The Escorts you refer to ( Rally cars , limited run option packages , etc.) Have nothing to do with the daily driver escort !!!! 3 ; The Honda TL125 was / is probably the sales leader EVER for a trials bike .... I'd be willing to bet there are more of them still running than most trials bike builders have ever built/sold ... 4 ;All of the new bikes we can buy now are made in small #'s , not most manufactures bread and butter ... Most of our trials bike builders make FANTASTIC Serious enduro bikes and other toys . 5 ; We are a extremely small market on a international business scale . CAN WE NOT BE HAPPY TO HAVE THE VERTIGO !!! It has proven itself on the international stage long before it's release to the public !!! To my knowledge none of the recent new brands have even attempted to do what Dougie and crew have DONE !!! 6 ; I hope them the very best in our market , and I'd love to try one ... Rant over .... Glenn great post not so sure the tl125 was ever that popular here though. In fact i cant remember the last time i saw one ridden even in the last couple of twinshock trials. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cleanorbust Posted May 19, 2015 Report Share Posted May 19, 2015 Good point about the TL125s in the UK. As for the trials bike which has survived best of all, I'd be inclined to rate the TY175 top. Still loads of them about and competing. Sorry way off original topic with this, won't mention it again! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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