Converting From Classic

[old trials fanatic]

Its even worse if you look at building an Ariel or AJS etc, its even more costly. There is no way I would sell my AJS - even for £10,000,which it clearly isn't worth - because of all the time and effort it takes to get a bike to run like it. You can sell time - but you cant buy it....

It all comes back to sensible sections to suit the bikes and riders.

Totally agree. Any trial with a ruling like that would have no entries at all well other than people turning up with a heap of #### hoping to sell it on.  

[4stroke]

So which of my bikes has suffered the most depreciation due to recent events, AJS or Gasgas?

[charlie prescott]

Hi Guy's.

 

Deryk.

 

I built the "Otter-On-The-Cheap" in 2010, just to prove how cheap you could build a "Brit Twin Shock" machine.

 

This came out to about £2000. so I would say that this plus a couple of hundred £'s now is the minimum, you can expect for a competitive build to cost.

 

But this is a lot less than the eight to ten grand being banded about for a "Trick-Shock" British??????? bike.

 

Dave's "Bultaco" builds are on the "Otter" site, so you can see how much work were put into there builds there, and take a look at the OOTC build. 

 

 

Regards Charlie.

[monty_jon]

 

 

Then remember it was won by James Noble with a loss of 4 marks on a relatively standard old Ariel - not a fiddle framed Villiers with power valves and Yamasuzi front forks, designed and manufactured in the 1990s - twenty years after they were eligible...........

 and I bet he would sell that Ariel for £2500

[collyolly]

When I insured my Ariel last year my insurer queried my valuation until I listed the parts required to replicate the build at £8000 excluding labour, it is no wonder new blood is not coming into the sport on the heavyweights.

I must point out that I did not pay that much for it 8 years ago but the right parts are now scarce, I do not really understand the issue about using later Spanish or Jap parts when you can build a 'legal' bike out of so called replica parts made in 2015 !

How many HT5 or Matchless bikes came with alloy rims, alloy hubs/brakes etc etc it is a ever ending race to make the bikes better for harder sections, this will of course now continue into twin shocks and then mono's.

Everyone talks about the 'the trial that cannot be named up North' with rose coloured glasses, yes there is scrutineering but it is a joke, lots of bikes look nothing like the pre 65 originals and no one has the balls to object.

Show me a bike that is ridden with foot rests in the original position, yes rests,not ultra grippy ultra light pegs made yesterday and in a position to enable modern sections to be ridden.

It may seem minor but as soon as the simple deviation of changing the riding position was allowed the sport changed and we have to accept that.

You now have modern grippy tires being used with modern styled sections and wonder why the older riders on 'original' bikes stay away.

Sorry to have covered more than one topic but it all adds up to the fact that the sport has moved on and we have to just enjoy riding what we can not necessarily for any awards but the sheer thrill of beating the modern bikes !

[b40rt]

Everyone talks about the 'the trial that cannot be named up North' with rose coloured glasses, yes there is scrutineering but it is a joke, lots of bikes look nothing like the pre 65 originals and no one has the balls to object.

 

 

 

So the pre 65 Scottish scrutineers have to "police" the entire pre 65 movement ?

 

80% of the entry are only seen up here once a year, over to you and your big balls

[jon v8]

Spud - sorry to say but you are the one who has it wrong. I spent the last 5 years running Bath Classic, promising to do all I could to promote the use of older rigid and pre unit bikes.Listening to the owners of these bikes and almost begging riders at other events to come along and join us. What I promised was sections that would not frighten the riders or wreck their bikes. It worked,we got good,repeat entries.There were no awards,just a fun day out where people could turn up and enjoy themselves.

Even though I am no longer organising trials,( For now ) I still ask riders where they are from and what events they ride. The vast majority of them just want a day out where they and their bikes can get around without hospital visits. Most are over 50 - or retired and have a finite amount to spend on trials,( Mainly the cost of getting there) so will pick and choose events. make it too hard and they just don't come back.

Sensible sections, well promoted and the riders will come back, talk of making them offer their bikes for sale if they do well and they will stay away - it really is that simple.

The real debate is the loss of land because of Defra stewardship, I've mentioned it before and nobody listens, offers ideas or says anything much really.

[collyolly]

O.K. I did not mean to infere that it was the responsibility of the Pre 65 Scottish organisers to control the sport but that particular trial has over the years become the benchmark for building bikes for this class.

The acceptance of parts made last week and in fact many 2015 Dots, James and Bantam complete bikes now being used in the pre 65 scene are a direct result of people bending the rules to be more competitive.

Scotland is the only trial that I have competed in with the scrutineering stage, it is a lot of work for the organisers and without pointing fingers it still allows bikes to be ridden that are far from pre 65 in appearance let alone build and this sets the standard for the rest of the sport.

So my apologies if I have ruffled feathers but we have to accept the sport has now changed and many riders from 10 an 20 years ago riding classic bikes are now 10 / 20 years older and no longer able to get round the sections and the bikes are too expensive to attract younger riders in.

[jon v8]

Sorry for what Spud ?  If there are riders going around on clean then the organisers need to look at the riders and bikes they are attracting - and TALK to them... Unless you have absolutely useless land experienced course setters can mark out sections with multiple routes to suit ALL abilities and bikes.Sorting out the quite frankly bloody stupid Miller rules would help too.

It can be done,recently Somerton Classic MCC ran their annual 2 day British trial, and very successfully catered for bikes from a 1929 rigid girder Ariel right up to the 2015 James type machine. Everyone had a great time and nobody on the A route finished the weekend clean,yet all the well respected riders were there. So it can happen, Golden Valley Classic run their Gerry Holdstock trophy/Eurocup trial this weekend - you can be sure of a similar situation there.

What you need is experienced people running the club who cater properly for their members.

Other factors are also at play,older riders are giving up,younger riders have family commitments etc and cant always ride/help. There are simply loads of leisure activities clawing at peoples spare time now, making it even more important to get the sections right,keep them fresh,not always using the same old routes etc. Even giving venues a rest for a while if you are lucky enough to have plenty of choice,which again brings me back to loss of land due to Defra - say it once again,"It is the real issue."

[b40rt]

What percentage of British bikes do not have a post 65 modification ? Be it tyres, shocks, ignition, bars, alloy rims ..............

 

Virtually none, so a handicap system is an option, whether based on age of bike, rider, success - or a combination.   

[davetom]

To sum it up ; bloke who doesn't ride his bike and doesn't organise events, tells blokes who do ride their bikes and do organise events where they are going wrong..

Even my birth certificate isn't pre65, the sport over time can't help evolving, and numbers are bound to fall off as the bikes mean less and less to young people as they have no connection with them.

Be thankful that there's still a healthy amount of riders out and about that still wish to play around on older bikes, but maybe do appreciate a little front suspension and tyres that grip.

Lucky for you that you've had a dead original big thumper handed down to you, just get out there and ride it, or lend it me if you don't want to?

[ttspud]

@davetom, feetupfun, otf, jonv8

 

 

 

riders that still wish to play around on older bikes, but maybe do appreciate a little front suspension and tyres that grip

 

And the sport would have been great if that is where it had been left, as you know, it has not been.

 

 

 

bloke who doesn't ride his bike and doesn't organise events, tells blokes who do ride their bikes and do organise events where they are going wrong..

 

This is what happened last time, people getting upset.  For some reason having a discussion about such an important issue seems to always devolve into 'sides'.  This is not about demonizing or getting personal, this is trying to have a discussion about facts and find solutions.  I understand many can't see that there is a problem, or benefit from the status quo, but that does not mean there isn't a problem.  And effectively (above) saying that 'we know better', clearly is the weakest argument one can offer.

 

The fact is that there is only one 'competitive' event left in the country that has a fairly large number of original pre65 bikes, though that event is dying too.  Ignoring that fact is not helpful.

 

In all other events, as Scarborough, as Somerton, as Peaks, the events have monoshocks, modified units, non-British, non-pre65 and if there are any pre-unit so-called pre65 bikes, often less than 10, then they are almost always highly modified and do not resemble the orginal bikes at all.  In other words, ouside that one event, there are a tiny number, if not no, original bikes being ridden in classic/pre65 trials and associated clubs.  Whether orgainsers are at fault or not, that is a fact.

 

Although not pre-unit, the BSA C15 in an earlier thread is typical of the 'evolved' bikes and associated attitudes. Compare that picture to the original bike shown on Charlie's site.  There are few to no pre65 parts on the bike.  Geometry completely different.  Frame, hubs, rims, tank, seat, ignition, bars, forks, engine casings are all highly modified.  

 

Anyone without a brass neck the size of nelson's column knows that that is not a pre65 bike and is probably as competitive as the best twinshocks.  Beautiful bike it may be, but fair in pre65 it is not.  Highly modified bikes are certainly a huge advantage over original bikes that they are commonly,.by organisers, pitted against on a supposedly even footing.  Just saying that that is natural progression or evolution, is disingenuous at best.  In truth, as has been admitted, it has come about through a desire to win at any cost, colloquially known as 'cheating'.  All that is fact.

 

It is also a fact, from Deryk's experience and obvious logic, that any 'competitive sport' must be fair.  Obviously a neo-90s twinshock vs a pre65 big thumper is not fair, but the rules do not stop it.  Obviously then riders leave, overriding any other factor including age and severity of routes.  That too is a fact.

 

To reverse this, organisers need to introduce rules to allow original bikes to compete against similar machines, not against highly modified non-pre65 machines, that is obvious too.

 

Every trial and club has their own version of the rules or a complete lack of rules.  All different.  Mostly useless. And almost all just allow anything to enter as pre65 which has caused a completely loss of original bikes from the 450+ in Deryks day and the 240+ from the 80s/90s in the southern event, all decimated now, soon to end the pre65 sport completely.  If there are no sport-wide rules, how do you know what to enter?  Do you keep a separate bike per trial?  A separate bike per club? 

 

I understand that many here manufacture parts or benefit from the manufacture of parts to keep the modified industry going.  But those bikes have helped to kill the sport.

 

I do now understand that the only way forward is to begin again (rather than expect the existing structures to change) with inclusive rules allowing fair competition, then original bikes can return to new competitive events under new competitive rules, which will happen when time allows.  I am certainly looking forward to the day that that is a reality.

 

I wish the rest of you the best of luck with your 'classic evolution' wherever that goes and whichever monoshock, britshock, or Tricott or whatever wild incarmation of modern/classic tricksterism takes the sports fancy next.

 

I will always believe that original pre65 bikes in a pre65 sport are always best for the sport, for current riders, for future riders and spectators alike. I understand that you disagree.

 

All the best, Spud.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 13, 2015 by ttspud