Early Mkl

[helm]

Hi

any ideas

Early mk1 with alloy tank and separate alloy seat unit

tank is shaped for a snug fit over the exhaust.

Later alloy top yoke

Replacement sm plastic mudguards ignore these

cheers helm

Edited July 14, 2015 by helm

[feetupfun]

what's the question?

 

[bigshineybike]

what's the question?

it appears to be for sale? Or have you bought it? If you are given it you'll still not make any money from it. Parts are available though. It will need total strip down.

[helm]

Hi

thanks to both ,sold

the question is does any one recognise the tank/seat in alloy

the tank is similar to the trial 250 but no breather and the

shape at the back is not the same the seat

To big shine bike. Do not understand your comments

Why will it need a strip down?and why do you think I want to make money on it?

Cheers

[cleanorbust]

Tank reminds me of that fitted to the Sammy Miller-produced frame kit used to make the "Villiers Bultaco" of the late 60s - early 70s. (37a Villiers motor in a Miller frame of Bultaco design). Could have been taken off one of those and fitted to your Montesa.

Edited July 15, 2015 by cleanorbust

[woody]

Tank looks very similar to an early Pursang copy in alloy

[helm]

Hi cleanorbust and woody

think the tank was made for the frame,

has a cut out in the bottom to fit close around

the exhaust ,

and fits exactly front and back

Also it does not look to have been altered in anyway

What about the seat unit?

this also is very well made

out of a single piece of alloy

Cheers helm

[kingscorpion]

Do you know the frame number? I'm not sure if it is a MkI or MkII. But in any case, it's been modified. For instance, the upper triple clamp is alloy while the other one seems to be made of iron.

[woody]

No idea what the seat unit is.

 

If you want to properly date the bike look here:

 

http://montesacotatials.blogspot.co.uk/2010/04/247-frame-numbers.html

[sparks2]

Hi
The bike is a Montesa Cota 247 MK 2 (from 1969 or very early 1970).
It has had a later top yoke fitted, a chain tensioner and gas Girlings.

The tank is a Sammy Miller alloy tank sold to fit the Bultaco of the day.
But I have seen them fitted to Montesas quite successfully.
Not sure about the seat unit but could well be the seat unit to match the tank. Obviously didn't fit the Montesa quite so well.

As Cleanorbust pointed out, this alloy tank/seat unit was fitted to the batch of Bultaco/Villiers machines produced and sold by SM.
These had the standard Bultaco M27 or early M49 frames so the seat unit would have been a better fit.
And, I would point out, were sold as a complete machine in kit form, not a frame kit, if that's what Cleanorbust meant.

Regards
Sparks
 

Edit:- Having had a better look, I'm fairly sure it's the seat unit to match the tank.

 

Edited July 16, 2015 by sparks2

[gasgas249uk]

I've a first edition large hub Cota 247. It is completely original and unmolested. I was never really interested in Montesa untill I met Pere Pi and the Permanyers. It helps to bring it all to life.

One day I'll clean it up but it sits with its young brothers.

[woody]

I meant to say earlier following Cleanorbust's post  -  I've never even heard or seen any mention before now of a Bulto/Villiers produced by Sammy Miller. Never knew they existed. Be interesting to see one.

 

Explains why the tank looks like early Pursang if it is a copy of a Model 49 tank

[sparks2]

Woody
The batch of Sammy Miller Bultaco/Villiers machines were a marriage of convenience.
At the time (1969) SM had been selling brand new Bultacos fitted with his own high quality chrome plated frame for a couple of years.
Thus had a quantity of brand new, mild steel, M27 and M49 Bultaco frames left over from the above conversion.

Norton Villiers had some 37a trials engines left over when their own AJS 37AT trials bike didn't sell as well as expected.
I think that the engines were offered to SM in the belief that they would be sold on the spares market and not as complete bikes to detract sales
from their remaining AJS 37AT trials machines.

Never one to miss a commercial opportunity, SM put the two together.
The engine mounting points would have had be altered, not a major job.
Add in REH forks with British Hub Company 'Motoloy' front and rear alloy hubs.

And finally top it off with the SM goodies including the alloy tank/seat unit and Hey Ho we have The SM Bultaco/Villiers.

As far as I can remember about 30 to 40 were made to be sold in kit form (to avoid purchase tax) by SM at a price, I would guess, just below the Bultaco/Montesa level.
I believe they were great bikes with better low down power than the Bultaco.
But they ran with the original Villiers flywheel magneto so would need careful maintenance.
And also ran with the original 15 tooth gearbox sprocket, so would seem high geared by todays standard when we run with 12 or 13.

If anyone can disagree or add to this, I would be very interested.

Sparks
 

Edited July 16, 2015 by sparks2

[lowbrow]

Sparks, I think you've just described my first trails bike, or maybe it's just a coincidence?  It had a Bultaco frame that had been immersed in a nickel bath for five minutes; a polished alloy tank and side panels similar to those on Helm's bike, and a Villiers 37A motor with square alloy barrel and IRZ carb.  The hubs were massive and the back rim was 19 inch!  Forks were Bultaco and perhaps if I knew then what I think I know now it might've been okay, but it was gutless and a pig to start.  I was told that the original owner had assembled it as a 'special' but in those days before auto-jumble sales  and Internet auction sites I always wondered how he'd collected such an eclectic mix of bits.  The idea that they all came out of Sammy Miller's emporium makes perfect sense of it all.

[sparks2]

Lowbrow
You can't rule anything in or out at this distance in time.

However:-
I don't think the SM Bultaco/Villiers frames were plated, just painted.

The Villiers 37A engine came with the round cast iron barrel (although a square alloy barrel would have been a popular mod).

The carb would have been the Villiers S25, as supplied with the engine.

The forks on the SM Bultaco/Villiers were originally REH, the Bultaco forks having been passed on to the new lightweight SM framed bike.

I am fairly certain the back wheel would have been 18'' at that point.

The alloy tank/seat units were available to purchase on their own as an after market goodie from SM.

Yes, unless the Villiers trials engines were given reasonably careful maintenance they could end up gutless and difficult to start.
But, given that maintenance, they were the equal if not better than the Spanish for the average rider (in my opinion).

It has always been a popular mod amongst private owners (especially in the early pre-65 days) to put a Villiers engine into a Bultaco frame.
 

So, you could have had the (much modified) remains of an SM Bultaco/Villiers.
But, slightly more likely, you had an assembled 'special' (as you originally thought).
Not that there would have been inherently wrong in an assembled 'special' , most 'pre-65' machines today are just that.
Regards

Sparks


 

Edited July 17, 2015 by sparks2