How To Check If A Motorcycle Is Stolen

[ChrisCH]

21 hours ago, pschrauber said:

What is so difficult to save one sheet of paper? Many people have so many so in detail going advices how to handle this and that to their bikes that is near an ideology. But can't save one sheet of paper that is something I can not undestand.

...

But it doesn't prove anything.  With a modern PC and software I can create an invoice for anything you want with a pretend company in seconds.  What is needed is a proper registration scheme and most governments run one for road machines.  Even then a lot of vehicles are stolen and sold on with false documents.

 

[skyrider]

strewth thats a bit worrying so how does anyone buy a legit bike and be sure of what they are buying apart from buying a brand new machine or maybe from a reputable dealer 🤔

[lineaway]

 Here in the states the problem is every state has a different set of laws for off road vehicles. That is 50 laws that hardly ever are even close. In fact half the states do not register or title off road vehicles, and  other states that do 50% of the bikes never get proper documentation. All my new bikes have papers, all my vintage do not.

Edited October 31, 2021 by lineaway

[ChrisCH]

12 hours ago, skyrider said:

strewth thats a bit worrying so how does anyone buy a legit bike and be sure of what they are buying apart from buying a brand new machine or maybe from a reputable dealer 🤔

Even if you buy from a legit dealer how do they know?  My bike came from John Lee where it was traded in.  How can they check if there is no database to check?

Unless we all record our VIN, frame and engine numbers and then lodge them with the police if there is a theft there is no method to check.  In the UK  like Lineaway's post above the different police forces have different databases, so a bike stolen in Yorkshire can be sold in Essex and almost certainly the frame number is not on the local police database.  Besides how many of us keep that record?  (No, I have not before you all ask)

[b40rt]

23 minutes ago, ChrisCH said:

Even if you buy from a legit dealer how do they know?  My bike came from John Lee where it was traded in.  How can they check if there is no database to check?

Unless we all record our VIN, frame and engine numbers and then lodge them with the police if there is a theft there is no method to check.  In the UK  like Lineaway's post above the different police forces have different databases, so a bike stolen in Yorkshire can be sold in Essex and almost certainly the frame number is not on the local police database.  Besides how many of us keep that record?  (No, I have not before you all ask)

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/protect-your-off-road-vehicle

[ChrisCH]

2 hours ago, b40rt said:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/protect-your-off-road-vehicle

Yes, it is a vast improvement on nothing.  Whilst it remains voluntary it will be limited in its effect.  It also needs promotion by the dealers so that there is some sort of registration.  If it were done automatically when new then in time all bikes would be on the scheme.  Also another benefit would be the ability to check the HP status.

[pschrauber]

On 10/31/2021 at 12:18 PM, ChrisCH said:

But it doesn't prove anything.  With a modern PC and software I can create an invoice for anything you want with a pretend company in seconds.  What is needed is a proper registration scheme and most governments run one for road machines.  Even then a lot of vehicles are stolen and sold on with false documents.

 

Of course a normal bill is a proof nowadays, because of the tax you and the dealer has to pay, look at the bill it's nowadays all written up and for high price items you still get _ because of the warranty - a stamp and a signature.

A stamp an an underwriting is very difficult to create by Photoshop and then you still have to put in your address as a seller too to the contract, would you buy from someone that will not share with you his identity?

This is thread/Theme not about espionage it's just about secure deal.

To other classic bikes that have no record, then set up a contract and combine the contract with the copy of the ID or if the seller will not do that (Actually he don't have too) but he has to show up a legal ID which is a ID-card or a passport and you can then check the ID/Passport and write up the number in the contract by yourself. That is proof enough.

[ChrisCH]

14 hours ago, pschrauber said:

Of course a normal bill is a proof nowadays, because of the tax you and the dealer has to pay, look at the bill it's nowadays all written up and for high price items you still get _ because of the warranty - a stamp and a signature.

I am sorry but you are missing the point.  The only way to know if the bike has been stolen is if the dealer sells it brand new.  A secondhand bike has to be recorded on a database from new otherwise it can be a stolen bike.  If I steal a bike and use it as trade in the dealer then sells that bike in good faith.

The new scheme that b40rt kindly provided a link to is what is needed.  Of course it is also very easy to register a stolen bike on that scheme and for it to be sold with the registration.  The registration needs to be mandatory for all new bikes and then in 40 years time there will be virtually no opportunity to sell a stolen bike.  In the meantime we all have to do the best we can - which is more or less nothing.

[turbofurball]

44 minutes ago, ChrisCH said:

I am sorry but you are missing the point.  The only way to know if the bike has been stolen is if the dealer sells it brand new.  A secondhand bike has to be recorded on a database from new otherwise it can be a stolen bike.  If I steal a bike and use it as trade in the dealer then sells that bike in good faith.

The new scheme that b40rt kindly provided a link to is what is needed.  Of course it is also very easy to register a stolen bike on that scheme and for it to be sold with the registration.  The registration needs to be mandatory for all new bikes and then in 40 years time there will be virtually no opportunity to sell a stolen bike.  In the meantime we all have to do the best we can - which is more or less nothing.

If everyone had the proven (by use of official ID) name and address of the previous owners then the likelihood of the bike being stolen goes down dramatically, because no theif wants their details to be kept with the bike.  Here it's normal to take a snap of the seller's ID card when buying a bike.

One thing this wouldn't prevent is cloned bikes, but then nothing short of diligence can wipe that out.

[b40rt]

The off road register scheme is at least 5 years old, I used it to identify if a bike I had just bought had been stolen. It transpired it was already registered and for £25 I got the original number back. Even a v5c in your name is " Not proof of ownership " 

Personally, I would never buy anywhere other than the sellers house / business. If your gut tells you to walk away, do it.

Edited November 2, 2021 by b40rt

[ChrisCH]

1 hour ago, turbofurball said:

If everyone had the proven (by use of official ID) name and address of the previous owners then the likelihood of the bike being stolen goes down dramatically, because no theif wants their details to be kept with the bike.  Here it's normal to take a snap of the seller's ID card when buying a bike.

One thing this wouldn't prevent is cloned bikes, but then nothing short of diligence can wipe that out.

Fair enough, as you well know we do not have an ID card in the UK.

Short of mandatory registration I am not sure there is much one can do as things stand.  (well here anyway)

[turbofurball]

1 minute ago, ChrisCH said:

Fair enough, as you well know we do not have an ID card in the UK.

Short of mandatory registration I am not sure there is much one can do as things stand.  (well here anyway)

Well you can ask to see someone's driving license instead I guess.

[ChrisCH]

1 hour ago, turbofurball said:

Well you can ask to see someone's driving license instead I guess.

Yes.  It just isn't normal practice here.  I doubt it is any more of a real problem than theft of cars or other machinery.  Trials bikes are cheap compared to a tractor or a combine.  Getting all the importers to register new bikes on the voluntary database would be a good start.

[turbofurball]

17 hours ago, ChrisCH said:

Yes.  It just isn't normal practice here.  I doubt it is any more of a real problem than theft of cars or other machinery.  Trials bikes are cheap compared to a tractor or a combine.  Getting all the importers to register new bikes on the voluntary database would be a good start.

When my dad was running a motorbike breakers he got burned once, he got a lot of used bikes at auction and some were stolen ... after that he didn't mind asking awkward questions when buying them!  Similarly I looked at a really nice DRZ400SM while back in the UK, it was the most stolen type of motorbike back in the day, and this one was a ringer - the numbers on the vin weren't in a 100% straight line.  It pays to use more stringent than would be considered "polite" when buying bikes, legit sellers don't mind honest questions and checks

[ChrisCH]

2 hours ago, turbofurball said:

When my dad was running a motorbike breakers he got burned once, he got a lot of used bikes at auction and some were stolen ... after that he didn't mind asking awkward questions when buying them!  Similarly I looked at a really nice DRZ400SM while back in the UK, it was the most stolen type of motorbike back in the day, and this one was a ringer - the numbers on the vin weren't in a 100% straight line.  It pays to use more stringent than would be considered "polite" when buying bikes, legit sellers don't mind honest questions and checks

A lot of breakers back in the day were not 100%.  I remember the commonplace "frame with V5" on eBay for sale at about twice the price of a new frame from the manufacturer.  I think the likes of Datatag and so on really began the decline of that, but probably the engineering improvements that made secondhand parts much less profitable.  Breakers had the problem everyone wanted the bits that you broke in a crash and all the bikes people wanted to sell had been crashed.

Some scrote stole my XL250 and Norwich Union gave me virtually nothing for it as it was old.  They fetch 3 grand now.  Humph.  I bet it died going round and round a field somewhere with a halfwit riding it.  I had just got my GPz 750 back after it too got pinched (living in London then).  The Kawa had done 7 miles or so and in that time they had bent the forks somehow.  They got caught and a slapped wrist.  The "victim support" people contacted me and I asked for the details of the thieves so I could sue them for the uninsured loss (car hire and so on) but no reply.  Not much "support".

I guess trials bikes are not worth enough to be a major issue, particulalry when you look at new sports bikes.  Top end Ducati now 13 grand plus and a grand a year service costs.  Phew.  I will stick with my old Suzuki.