baldilocks Posted October 3, 2015 Report Share Posted October 3, 2015 Andy can we have an ignore talks ***** button ? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dadof2 Posted October 4, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 4, 2015 Firstly I have not said I do not favour discs, I do favour discs. Nor have I said hydraulics do not work. Properly maintained and in good order hydraulic clutches and brakes do work fine. However hydraulics cannot be fixed easily, especially in the middle of a trial when they do go wrong. I know of quite a few riders over the past few seasons who have had to retire from events or struggle on with brakes or clutches not working properly. Problems ranged from necking off hoses in fall, necking off the clutch nipple in a fall and loosing the little couplings between the lever and the plunger. Also some have had clutches and brakes stop working for no apparent reason - look at the number of posts from puzzled owners on TC on these issues. Capital and replacement costs of hydraulics is much higher than mechanical systems. Of course you cannot just fit cables to a 2015 bike, the brake and clutch actuating mechanisms have to be designed to suit mechanical actuation. I point out that most MX bikes and cars have cable clutches and these prove highly reliable over many years. I think the reason trials bikes have hydraulics is because the components are easily available from sub contractors and trials bike manufacturers and dealers would rather supply more expensive more profitable components. There is no advantage to a manufacturer in supplying a low price highly reliable item, even if it was the most appropriate for the end user. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tony27 Posted October 4, 2015 Report Share Posted October 4, 2015 Have you ever compared cable versus hydraulic brakes on MTBs? Cable/mechanical disc brakes have a lot less power & wear the pads strangely which further reduce their effectiveness, cost between the 2 systems isn't that great in reality & the cable systems have to be more open to crap due to how they operate There is no way I'd choose to have cable operated discs on either my MTB or motorcycle again Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigel dabster Posted October 5, 2015 Report Share Posted October 5, 2015 Firstly I have not said I do not favour discs, I do favour discs. Nor have I said hydraulics do not work. Properly maintained and in good order hydraulic clutches and brakes do work fine. However hydraulics cannot be fixed easily, especially in the middle of a trial when they do go wrong. I know of quite a few riders over the past few seasons who have had to retire from events or struggle on with brakes or clutches not working properly. Problems ranged from necking off hoses in fall, necking off the clutch nipple in a fall and loosing the little couplings between the lever and the plunger. Also some have had clutches and brakes stop working for no apparent reason - look at the number of posts from puzzled owners on TC on these issues. Capital and replacement costs of hydraulics is much higher than mechanical systems. Of course you cannot just fit cables to a 2015 bike, the brake and clutch actuating mechanisms have to be designed to suit mechanical actuation. I point out that most MX bikes and cars have cable clutches and these prove highly reliable over many years. I think the reason trials bikes have hydraulics is because the components are easily available from sub contractors and trials bike manufacturers and dealers would rather supply more expensive more profitable components. There is no advantage to a manufacturer in supplying a low price highly reliable item, even if it was the most appropriate for the end user. Any system will fail if not looked after so an argument that its cheaper to replace doesnt hold up does it? Nicasil is more expensive than cast shall we go back to water cooling so pumps dont fail. Luddite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
feetupfun Posted October 5, 2015 Report Share Posted October 5, 2015 The signal-to-noise ratio (for the communications between the clutch, the brakes and the brain of the trials rider) is better with hydraulic discs and clutch than with cables, so hydraulics provide a performance advantage. Hydraulics and disc brakes go hand in hand. Cable disc brakes provide poor communication in comparison, as do hydraulic drum brakes. Please don't use street car justification for something on a trials bike. On street cars the signal-to-noise ratio of the clutch is not particularly important, so if a (cheaper, more reliable) cable can be used for the design, it will be. People want to buy the trials bike that maximises their chance at winning. The proof of this is that so many people keep buying the latest and greatest, and are willing to lose $$$ on depreciation each year, rather than keeping riding the one bike until it is uneconomical to maintain. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zippy Posted October 5, 2015 Report Share Posted October 5, 2015 Nigel, its quite simple - as I said my AJS is the bike I enjoy riding most. Several reasons for that,the way it grips,steers,sounds,looks,holds its value... One of the best bits is getting a lower score than riders on springers,twinshocks and pogo sticks on the same route. That bike will find grip with a knackered IRC with 8psi in it. It is only big rocks or steps that defeat it,luckily we have mostly mud and roots in the South West where I ride. Zippy, fitting disc brakes to a TY175 ? Yes,they would work better but then the suspension would not be good enough, or it would be too heavy or not enough power - just go buy a Gas Gas,be alot easier... My TY250 has a light clutch even with an old cable on it that has seen better days,any lighter and it would get pulled in brushing past branches etc,which wouldnt help.I'm a bit lardy and not very fit, but I manage to ride long trials without "arm pump". I also stated that I celebrate that we are all different,tis a good thing - I dont like rugby,football or cricket either... I agree we are all different, I even stated we do not NEED hydraulics but makes it more fun, easier etc...... I will respond to the bit about the TY175. The TY175 is a beautiful machine and would be perfect with the mods I mentioned for riding the type of trials I also mentioned (vintage no stop, or even vintage stop allowed), Those sections are DESIGNED for those bikes and the TY175 has great power, suspension and weight for those sections. I have a GasGas for the modern hop, rev, splat, balance, rev, launch, nose wheelie stuff. I enjoy both. Also I don't think anybody actually likes cricket.......... do they? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dadof2 Posted October 5, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 5, 2015 Remember I am in the UK where trials are now pretty well all no stop rules. The most important precise control in trials is throttle - why are cables used for that if they are so poor in comparison to hydraulics? Karting - braking is one of the most crucial aspects of Kart racing yet quite a few drivers prefer cable to hydraulics. MTB - I have limited personal experience of this but have found both hydraulic and cable disc brakes to be satisfactory and well up to the job. I know of quite a few MTB riders or dads of who find working on hydraulics intimidating whereas most can fix cable systems. I know of a group were on a MTB holiday in Skye and the western isles. The only one who had brake trouble was the rider with hydraulics. He lost 3 days of the weeks holiday and incurred quite a bit of expense travelling back to Oban to try to get his bike fixed. I reckon the price difference between hydraulic and cable systems is between 2 and 4:1. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
biffsgasgas Posted October 5, 2015 Report Share Posted October 5, 2015 Remember I am in the UK where trials are now pretty well all no stop rules. The most important precise control in trials is throttle - why are cables used for that if they are so poor in comparison to hydraulics? Karting - braking is one of the most crucial aspects of Kart racing yet quite a few drivers prefer cable to hydraulics. MTB - I have limited personal experience of this but have found both hydraulic and cable disc brakes to be satisfactory and well up to the job. I know of quite a few MTB riders or dads of who find working on hydraulics intimidating whereas most can fix cable systems. I know of a group were on a MTB holiday in Skye and the western isles. The only one who had brake trouble was the rider with hydraulics. He lost 3 days of the weeks holiday and incurred quite a bit of expense travelling back to Oban to try to get his bike fixed. I reckon the price difference between hydraulic and cable systems is between 2 and 4:1. Send us hydraulics here please because they may not work for you or your region but they sure make it fun to ride here. Many inaccuracies with your statement but I don't think pointing them out will be constructive. Why exactly is there a desire to have a world of absolutes in these topics? Sure there are advantages and disadvantages of everything but cramming personal opinions down peoples throats without an open mind and with bias takes away from whatever is attempting to be communicated. One mountain bike rider who took three days to fix a hydraulic system won't exactly sway me against the system. --Biff 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baldilocks Posted October 5, 2015 Report Share Posted October 5, 2015 Anyone got a link for a hydraulic Keihin ? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guys Posted October 5, 2015 Report Share Posted October 5, 2015 Alright, that's it! All who think we don't need hydraulics, raise your hand.Fine, now that's out of the way, can we please move on to more important questions like: Does my bum look big in these trial pants. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baldilocks Posted October 5, 2015 Report Share Posted October 5, 2015 Agreed guys. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddie_lejeune Posted October 5, 2015 Report Share Posted October 5, 2015 Simple, clean the brake drums and liners, oil the cables on a regular basis, and use quality clutch plates, sorted. Or is that too much work? yes the bike of 2015 should need no maintenance, 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigel dabster Posted October 6, 2015 Report Share Posted October 6, 2015 Alright, that's it! All who think we don't need hydraulics, raise your hand. Fine, now that's out of the way, can we please move on to more important questions like: Does my bum look big in these trial pants. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tony27 Posted October 6, 2015 Report Share Posted October 6, 2015 Does my bum look big in these trial pants. Won't fall into the trap of answering that with the wife so I won't here either 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dadof2 Posted October 6, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 6, 2015 Looked this one up on some bike forums, seems they can discuss the topic rationally and without resorting to insults Seems the newer mechanical (cable) operated discs are finding quite a few supporters. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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