Wtc Vs Cma - Why Not Have Both?

[bob j]

No, Steve. I did NOT tell anyone over the telephone last January that WTC or MCC would soon be affiliated with the FIM.  That is a complete falsehood.

 

[michael_t]

good lord! We are here talking about the state of trials in our country, and right now have the biggest opportunity we have ever had in my almost 40yrs of competing. The wheel has already been invented and we need to work together. The only people to blame are ones not wanting to work together.

I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt so... lets forget the $75.

Just tell me exactly what the great opportunity is? what's the plan? what are we working together on? What is it you would like me to do? I'm a great worker, I have a great job as a Sr Project Manager and am happy to bring my expertise to bear, I am ready to roll up my sleeves and help in anyway I can as an eager trials volunteer. What is the first task on the Agenda?

Cheers,

Michael

[bob j]

Steve, I did NOT tell anyone by telephone last January that  WTC/MCC would soon be affiliated with the FIM.   This is a complete falsehood.  Actually, I believe that it's rather unlikely that there will be a change in FIM affiliation for Canada anytime soon. If you understand the politics of these things , you'll know that these old pals tend to look after one another.

 

[steve fracy]

Steve, I did NOT tell anyone by telephone last January that  WTC/MCC would soon be affiliated with the FIM.   This is a complete falsehood.  Actually, I believe that it's rather unlikely that there will be a change in FIM affiliation for Canada anytime soon. If you understand the politics of these things , you'll know that these old pals tend to look after one another.

Well Bob, I am glad you answered the question. However, you did make such a phone call, and the recipient of this call, called me right after you spoke to him. He was asking me, as the Chairman of the CMA TAC, for clarification on your statements. I received the call while driving to the bike show in Abbotsford and I have two witnesses who can back up the call I received, one of which is my daughter. The call was from someone I respect and who has no alterior motives and only wants to be a positive influence for the sport. So I will stand by my statements.

 

You also this year printed false statements on your website about CMA rules, and, even after a courtesy call by myself to explain to you your mistake, your comments were " I read it on the CMA website, but they have now erased it, I am gonna keep it up on the website". You mis-read the website as the rules you read were proposals, NOT passed rules. Throughout the year your clear distain towards the CMA is evident. That is your right. But it is ridiculous when you pass judgement on something you know nothing about. My info tells me you don't belong to any club and are not an active member in any trials organization. That's your right too, but puts you in jeapordy of not being credible to make comments or make editorials on the state of trials in Canada.

[steve fracy]

I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt so... lets forget the $75.

Just tell me exactly what the great opportunity is? what's the plan? what are we working together on? What is it you would like me to do? I'm a great worker, I have a great job as a Sr Project Manager and am happy to bring my expertise to bear, I am ready to roll up my sleeves and help in anyway I can as an eager trials volunteer. What is the first task on the Agenda?

Cheers,

Michael

Michael:

 

Well I am happy to know that such an enthusiastic person like you is willing to volunteer. The opportunity is, that we as trials riders can shape the sport, and the organization in anyway we see fit! Its a blank canvas right now, and we need to work hard to build a strong foundation to support and build the sport for many years.;

 

I can tell you that we are scheduling the first ever "Trials in Canada Summit meeting" at the beginning of December in Coquitlam BC and it will be open to any and all trials riders. We will explain what the purpose of the TAC is, and how it is important that all riders give their input. As well, we hope to show how important it is that we work together as one group and gain strength from that. We have many ideas and plans, and its important for their success that we have good people all working together.

 

All I can tell you right now Michael, is to understand and trust the integrity of the people who are on the TAC and their experience in the sport. The desire they have to have fun, and all trials riders in Canada to be working as one strong unit. You know most of them I believe. Myself, Christy Williams-Richards, Derek Thomas, Jonathan English, and Paul Yvan-Belanger.

[michael_t]

Will the CMA be providing any funding for enthusiast who would like to be part of the summit? I have attended other such national summits for Paddling, Biathlon, and Off Road Motorcycling and would like to be a part of this one as well if possible. Will the Agenda be published for all and will the meeting be open for people to be able to call into (I do realize that depending on the agenda it may not be feasible)?

As you know the TAC was announced in Nov of 2013 so saying it is a blank Canvas right now might confuse some. I realize that wording things can be hard for everyone especially in emails and even worse in this sort of international forum. I will take it as meaning the TAC is preparing to take a new line to get more traction for tackling the difficult task of building our sport.

I like all that are on the TAC I just see it as heavily slanted towards the elite high performance competition side of the sport. I see absolutely nothing wrong with that, it just depends where you want to take it.

A great test would be to look at your budget for 2016 and see what sort of activities you are funding? Can the TAC fully appreciate riders that have no interest in anybody who is riding outside of their province? There are some that do not even know who any of the World round riders are (outside Bou and Raga). Do you really need/want to be spending your time and energy on them? It is no problem if you don't but it is worth thinking about it before trying to undermine organizations that may be slightly more focused on them. Might be a great topic for the summit.

Edited October 25, 2015 by michael_t

[bob j]

Steve, I'm not going to argue with you on a public forum, so this will be my final word to you on this topic.  Henceforth, I will not be following this thread, and I won't responding to anything further that you may have to say.

 

I will deal with your two allegations, though.

 

Firstly, the phone call from your mystery informant. As I don't recall ever telephoning anybody about this matter, I really have no idea who this mystery person might be. As it happens, I don't believe that the FIM will be ousting the CMA any time soon, so I certainly would not have been telephoning people last January to announce the imminent departure of the CMA from the FIM family.  That's just ridiculous. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt -- either your informant was mistaken in what I said, or your informant has me confused with some other telephone caller. Or possibly you were mistaken in what your informant told you.

 

Secondly, on the topic of the no-stop rule.  I happen to believe that the adoption of the no-stop rule by the FIM is a good thing. Where it has been implemented, it appears to have had a beneficial effect. So when I saw the proposal by the CMA to implement that rule, I thought of it as good news.  And I wrote it up as a "good news" story about the CMA.  As it turns out, while I was writing the story, the CMA voted to reject this FIM regulation, and decided to toss out the no-stop rule. My intention with the story was to show the CMA in a good light, portraying them as forward thinkers, aligning themselves with other progressive trials groups around the world. But it seems that the CMA is feeling a little touchy these days, and imagines itself under attack when that is a long way from being the case.

 

That's it, I'm now done with this thread.

 

[steve fracy]

 

Steve, I'm not going to argue with you on a public forum, so this will be my final word to you on this topic.  Henceforth, I will not be following this thread, and I won't responding to anything further that you may have to say.

 

I will deal with your two allegations, though.

 

Firstly, the phone call from your mystery informant. As I don't recall ever telephoning anybody about this matter, I really have no idea who this mystery person might be. As it happens, I don't believe that the FIM will be ousting the CMA any time soon, so I certainly would not have been telephoning people last January to announce the imminent departure of the CMA from the FIM family.  That's just ridiculous. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt -- either your informant was mistaken in what I said, or your informant has me confused with some other telephone caller. Or possibly you were mistaken in what your informant told you.

 

Secondly, on the topic of the no-stop rule.  I happen to believe that the adoption of the no-stop rule by the FIM is a good thing. Where it has been implemented, it appears to have had a beneficial effect. So when I saw the proposal by the CMA to implement that rule, I thought of it as good news.  And I wrote it up as a "good news" story about the CMA.  As it turns out, while I was writing the story, the CMA voted to reject this FIM regulation, and decided to toss out the no-stop rule. My intention with the story was to show the CMA in a good light, portraying them as forward thinkers, aligning themselves with other progressive trials groups around the world. But it seems that the CMA is feeling a little touchy these days, and imagines itself under attack when that is a long way from being the case.

 

That's it, I'm now done with this thread.

 

Of course you are done Bob, what else could you do at this point? I do find it curious how you and your buddy portray such a positive upbeat persona, all for the sport attitude publicly, but in reality behind the scenes, have a completely different one. I am  not alone in knowing this and seeing the extreme bias your own website portrays. I also find it curious what interest someone like you at this point in your life when you don't ride or even contribute to any club, other than the website? good luck

 

 

[steve fracy]

Will the CMA be providing any funding for enthusiast who would like to be part of the summit? I have attended other such national summits for Paddling, Biathlon, and Off Road Motorcycling and would like to be a part of this one as well if possible. Will the Agenda be published for all and will the meeting be open for people to be able to call into (I do realize that depending on the agenda it may not be feasible)?

As you know the TAC was announced in Nov of 2013 so saying it is a blank Canvas right now might confuse some. I realize that wording things can be hard for everyone especially in emails and even worse in this sort of international forum. I will take it as meaning the TAC is preparing to take a new line to get more traction for tackling the difficult task of building our sport.

I like all that are on the TAC I just see it as heavily slanted towards the elite high performance competition side of the sport. I see absolutely nothing wrong with that, it just depends where you want to take it.

A great test would be to look at your budget for 2016 and see what sort of activities you are funding? Can the TAC fully appreciate riders that have no interest in anybody who is riding outside of their province? There are some that do not even know who any of the World round riders are (outside Bou and Raga). Do you really need/want to be spending your time and energy on them? It is no problem if you don't but it is worth thinking about it before trying to undermine organizations that may be slightly more focused on them. Might be a great topic for the summit.

 

Great questions Michael!

 

You might be surprised to know that firstly, my personal feeling is that, we need to spend the bulk of our budget (whole other issue) towards the grass roots of the sport. Building strong organized clubs, getting very young kids and there families involved in those clubs. Rider training, event set up training. From there we can build strong Provincial championships using club level events, catered to the bulk of those club riders. Then, hopefully from there we can determine who the elite from each region are, and be in a position to help them develop to a level they wish to. Only this way can we expect to build a strong sport across the country.

 

All of this will take time and some $$$. The $$$ will only be able to come from riders and clubs, and then be put back into the sport to support such tasks. So instead of wasting time bickering about a group bent on division of an already small group, we could be spending that time and effort getting on with things. We are so far behind already.

 

[steve fracy]

Yesterday I read a quote posted by someone on this site who I have great respect for and it applies here. " What people can accomplish working together is more than they could accomplish each working individually. Everyone has strengths, but when you put those strengths together, they produce something more than the individuals could alone"

[michael_t]

As far as the riders being the only ones to pay to grow the sport... I had posted the following on the "how do we grow the sport" thread a little while ago (26th of June):

 

If people think they need money to make the thing grow I strongly suggest not going after the riders. Very few independent people have the funds that large corporations have. If you squeeze the rider to hard they will just stay at home. It is typically just about as fun improving your riding at home as it is riding where there are people to tease you when you fall (especially if there is only a beer on the line).

I strongly suggest you work very closely with your local clubs and volunteer base so you don't just come in and p*** people off. Do a lot of research before doing anything else and if you are going to do it GO BIG - what ever you think you need multiply it by 4. Everything costs more than you think it does.

As an example I decided one year that I would test the waters as far as getting funding for trail development, I put a proposal together asking the local Government for $5k to clear some trail with mostly volunteer effort and that any remaining funds would go to the local dirt bike organization. I was shot down and told I didn't know what I was doing. The next year I became president of the local dirt bike organization and submitted proposals to multiple sponsors and agencies totalling over $200k for trail building and additional funds for supporting the organization itself. We were successful in receiving all the funding and in building 4 riding parks across the Province. I am no longer president but the local organization continues to grow and the riding areas continue to receive funding every year for on-going maintenance. The local dirt bike organization has also continued to grow and currently has over 700 members.

Moral of the story is - If you can figure out who the right players are and where the money is (and if you are a little lucky) just about anything is possible.

First step is figuring out EXACTLY what it is you want to do and then figure out how to fund it. If you need $2M you need to have a much different approach than if you need $2K... unless you can clearly articulate exactly how much you need and exactly what you plan to do with it (it doesn't matter how much you are looking for it) will be near impossible to get it. Very few people will pay any significant amount of money into an organization if they do not clearly understand how the funds are going to provide a benefit (or healthy return) for their investment.

Just my 2 cents.

As a side note it is easy enough to get the red bull girls to show up with the big archway and free drinks (even here in Nova Scotia)... but they seem to get bored easily so watch what you ask for             

Edited October 25, 2015 by michael_t

[michael_t]

Hey Steve,

 

It is language like this "I also find it curious what interest someone like you at this point in your life when you don't ride or even contribute to any club, other than the website" ... That is really rude and un called for and it flys in the face of your later comment that says "Everyone has strengths," You consistently belittle people on these forums (you may not even realize you are doing it) it really hurts and it is not what this sport is about. 

 

If you have any hopes of ever raising funds from true sponsors (actually anyone other than a few of your riding buddies) I would strongly suggest a large apology is in order.   

[steve fracy]

its unfortunate you feel that way Michael but your entitled  to your opinion. It is impossible for you to really know all the things that have taken place in the West here seeing that  you are so far away. The WTC isn't being truthful about its intentions or motivation. That is a fact. A self appointed national sanctioning body, by your words.

 

You for some reason have a dislike for the National sanctioning body, as does Bob and Dave. That's their right too. But, its time to move on for the better of the sport! If you cant understand that having a Canadian version of the NATC, working together with the CMA to achieve this, is the only option, I cant do much about that. Anytime mis-truths are told or printed, I will point them out.

[michael_t]

Hey Steve,

End of the day, there is no reason to be rude to people in real life or in person. I can't see how you can consider your comments towards Bob to be anything other than insulting why would you do that ?  Would you really say something like that to his face if you ran into him at a trials event? If that happened here in the Maritimes people would be asked to leave the event. Maybe things really are different on that coast... but I find it hard to believe.  

 

I do not dislike either of the national sanctioning bodies. I certainly don't dislike any of the members of the TAC and I would hope if you asked them at your next meeting they might all tell you how much they like me (the exception being Christy but that is just because we have never had the opportunity to meet).

 

Unfortunately there has been a past history of the CMA charging people in the Atlantic region but not giving them much in return. That doesn't mean I don't like them I just want an explanation as to where the money is going to go before I pay any fees... I don't need to ask the WTC where they spend my money as they are not expecting me to pay for anything. 

 

I'm getting the feeling that after 2 years of operations the TAC may not have solid financial plan in place with goals and associated budgets... Maybe it truly is a "blank canvas". It is possible that as part of a for profit corporation (the CMA) they would rather keep any financial information confidential. That is certainly their right and I don't dislike them for that, I am just not in the habit of sending money to people that can't identify how the money will be spent. Hopefully you don't dislike people for asking (as I plan to continue to ask). 

 

Cheers,

Michael

[michael_t]

Getting back to the original question CMA and WTC why not have both ?

 

Answering the following questions may help... These are my own personal answers and should not be considered official views of any particular group.

 

Q: There are certain criteria in order to be classified as an "organization".. Does the WTC have any of them?

 

A:

or·gan·i·za·tionˌôrɡənəˈzāSH(ə)n/ noun

noun: organization; plural noun: organizations; noun: organisation; plural noun: organisations

1. 1.

   an organized body of people with a particular purpose, especially a business, society, association, etc.

    

    

Not sure what the WTC is missing... there is certainly a body of people whose particular purpose it is to grow the sport of Trials across Canada. Maybe it could be argued we could be better organized but couldn't every organization?

 

Q: They have a website, self appointed championships, and what is if for??

 

A: They are to help us be better organized by having a website we can publish a standard rule book promote our events and record the results.  Regional competition and National Championships allow riders to progress and compete within the organization across our country.

 

Q: What is the end goal here?.

 

A: The end goal is to have legitimate Trials events right across the country that are organized and the results tracked to give the riders a sense of belonging to a national organization. An organization that is willing to support trials riding from coast to coast at little to no cost to the riders.  

 

Q Are there are already more than enough events, easy entry to the sport ( that's what clubs are for) ample opportunities to advance ( The TAC is extremely motivated and a main goal). Everything is already in place as Steve F. sees it. Strong clubs, who could all work together with the National Federation building a strong sport for all.

 

A: There could never be enough events IMO. There where actually 3 or 4 years here that we had no events. I would love to see weekly training events and competitions in every province and even separate regions in each province (as most of our Provinces are larger than Countries in other parts of the world). From my experience the clubs are given no support from the CMA if they would like to join the CMA they are faced with a large expense and told they will get nothing in return. If they would like to be considered as a sanctioned event all riders would need to pay $80 a year. If they would like to use the CMA insurance policy there is an additional charge on top of that. For the past few years the CMA has repeatedly told me we are too small to consider joining the CMA and they have nothing to offer us for the money it would cost us. I actually asked if it was okay if we had members join the CMA and use our own insurance the answer it was fine to do that unless we used the WTC policy as they were seen as a competitor??? (hard to believe when Steve sees it as a non-entity).   

 

WTC provides free membership a free rule book pleasant and helpful people across the country willing to answer your questions. We get a say in setting the competition rules and the legitimacy of being part of a national group of people following the same rule book.  All things that the CMA can provide but at a significant cost.

 

Q: What is the point of the WTC?

A: As I see it the point of the WTC is to fill a gap that the CMA fails to see. We need to be supporting local clubs not just expecting them to pay into an organization for nothing tangible in return. At one time there was no other option and the sport went on a great decline as people simply choose not to put on events or compete. This was extremely apparent here on the East coast. 

 

I think a great illustration of this was the event in NB last weekend we had 10 riders who had never ridden a trials event before some had trials bikes some shared bikes with people most didn't hand in their score cards... all had a great time! What would the value have been if we told them they had to send $80 to Ontario before being allowed to ride? On the other hand I felt there was value at the riders meeting to be able to say we are following the official WTC rule book, have people sign an appropriate waiver, and hand the land owner / organizer an official certificate of insurance.        

 

I did ask the CMA if they had any money to support Trials in Canada and the answer was no. I then asked that if I was to secure sponsors would that money go towards Trials in Canada... The answer was yes the money would be set aside and only used for trials. I then approached a number of sponsors who are supporters of trials in Canada and the resounding response was if you are able to raise money for trials you should keep it local and support growing the sport the way you have been. So that is what I decided to do.

      

CMA does have the FIM status and the TAC is starting to make in roads with growing the sport. It is great to have both organizations as at the national level we need to have that in place but until the CMA can start supporting the grass root riders who just want to get out for few fun legitimate events each year there will continue to be a need for the WTC.

 

As a side note it is interesting to see the growth in both flat track and Enduro riding  in Canada since they moved away from the CMA...