steve fracy Posted August 23, 2016 Report Share Posted August 23, 2016 (edited) Comparing what you are doing in NS and the trials scene there is not at all a good comparison to what is going on in the rest of the country, or North America. You are just starting out so many of your analagies do not apply. Its just apples and oranges. Nothing wrong with it, just different. So in that light we are coming at this from completely different angles and it may be impossible to agree on anything. Thats OK. How YOU see the WTC is not what I asked. What is the goal of the WTC? What is the point? Also, do you have a membership card, or anything that indicates you are a member of the WTC? My club, the CPTA club and others do NOT belong to the CMA to have insurance supplied. This whole thing about supplying insurance is irrelevent to the conversation ( for our American friends) it works different here and clubs obtain really good insurance through private insurance companies at a very reasonable price. Free membership? Free rulebook? Helpful people? Getting a say in rules etc. You cant be serious? This is what you see as a contribution? These are all things that can be done through your club. The TAC is the engine that can now do all of this as i have stated many times before. The model you seem to refer back to no longer exists. Although no one you get direction from within the WTC seems to want to be honest about it, if they were successful in the bid to obtain the FIM affiliation, do you suppose you would still have free membership???? This was dicussed many years ago and I know the answer already but just wanted you to think about it. You would be right back where we already are. You and your club do not need anyone to hold trials in NS. That is the fact. I explained also many times how our clubs work and the entry fees how they support new riders encourage people to join etc. There is NO organization needed to help you with that. You are doing just fine. I am sure because of your geographical location and the newness of the club that you would love to have more events. Out West here we already have too many events and there is always a struggle to find free weekends to you cant use your own scenario as a case study. Apologies to not replying quick enough for you. We supported Canadian trials by driving from Vancouver Island to Saskatchewan for the Nationals. We left Sask Sunday after the trial and I arrived home on the island at 10:15pm last night. Steve Edited August 23, 2016 by steve fracy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael_t Posted August 24, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 24, 2016 Yes we are certainly coming from to very different perspectives. You say clubs can buy their own very inexpensive insurance... not sure what you consider very inexpensive... but can't beat the price from the WTC (Free). To be honest I don't use it as I use NSORRA insurance. I helped start the NSORRA a few years ago and it just hit 900 members this year which is pretty amazing for a dirt bike organization here in NS. So yes if you do have a larger organization that you can pull upon for insurance maybe there is no need but I really like that there is that option for anybody who would like to go the free route to start out. It really sounds to me like you are saying we don't need anybody (including the CMA and the CMA doesn't need us) as we are too small... so I suppose it is best we stick with the WTC for the time being and revisit it when we get a bit bigger. Congrats on the Nationals - sounds like a great family trip ! Cheers, Michael Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve fracy Posted August 24, 2016 Report Share Posted August 24, 2016 What I am saying ( and you dont seem to see it or answer my questions) is that any club in Canada does not NEED anyone, until such point that they want to say host a National, have riders who desire to ride Internationally or aspire to ride for their country on the Tdn team. If you do, then you will have to be a CMA member. I am also saying that a strong National Federation is good for anyone who desires to do what I have layed out. Some clubs realize this and support by affiliation. You have been told by the CMA ( a non profit organization) that money raised for trials will go towards trials. You did not answer me about if you have a membership card or proof of being a member of WTC. YOu have also admitted that you do not use their insurance, so I do not understand what you say about being apart of some people who give you advice and rules etc. In my experience, this is an unwritten code of all trials clubs and organizations accross North America. Nothing new. The WTC will not get bigger...... I find it interesting that you assume the WTC is a National body. Not only is it recognized by anyone, the FIM does not know of its existence. Approximately 90 percent of the World of Trials is under the FIM umbrella. You also didn't answer my questions raised about that and your supposed free membership. I know all the parties involved, and the inside chatter that you may not have been included in. Unfortunately I believe you are not privy to all of it and with your young group it doesn't matter to them. It is in its nature very dis-honest and troubling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
borus Posted August 24, 2016 Report Share Posted August 24, 2016 MX, Enduro, Dirt Track, Road Racing and a lot of Trials have done well outside the CMA. They have created their own regional organizations and done well. I really don't think a National organization is needed for any of these disciplines, Canada is simply too big to manage it and it's not easy to keep everyone from Vancouver Island to the east coast on the same page. It would not surprise me that maybe 1 in 10 trials bike owners in Canada actually compete. Would there be any more than 200 competing riders across Canada? I see no need for a National Governing body for these riders. Maybe the CMA and WTC should agree on just one item. Name their respective Championships under their name only. Therefore - WTC Championship - East and West CMA Championship. Leave the word National out of it. cheers 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael_t Posted August 24, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 24, 2016 Hey Borus, That sounds good to me. Hi Steve, no the WTC does not have membership cards as they cost money... CMA charges $80 per person for their cards and they have clearly stated that money does not go to trials. the only money that would go to trials would be money a sponsor donated with the express instructions it go to trials... not sure anybody has actually done that as when I asked they said they had no money available for trials. I agree nobody really needs anybody... but I kind of like joining a group of like minded people who treat me with respect... maybe you are correct that it all a secret plot of some sort but I will take my chances . Not sure what your question is about the FIM... but no they do not recognize anybody who doesn't send them a cheque... maybe it was rhetorical question? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve fracy Posted August 25, 2016 Report Share Posted August 25, 2016 MX, Enduro, Dirt Track, Road Racing and a lot of Trials have done well outside the CMA. They have created their own regional organizations and done well. I really don't think a National organization is needed for any of these disciplines, Canada is simply too big to manage it and it's not easy to keep everyone from Vancouver Island to the east coast on the same page. It would not surprise me that maybe 1 in 10 trials bike owners in Canada actually compete. Would there be any more than 200 competing riders across Canada? I see no need for a National Governing body for these riders. Maybe the CMA and WTC should agree on just one item. Name their respective Championships under their name only. Therefore - WTC Championship - East and West CMA Championship. Leave the word National out of it. cheers I believe that because the CMA is a member of the worldwide Federation and has held our National Championship for Trials for well over 60yrs that it will remain what it is. Numbers or not, it is important to have a strong and meaningful National Championship. Its also a necessity for our top riders to obtain an International license to compete abroad. WTC can do what ever it wants, but a good step would be to call IT'S series, the WTC Championship. Its not recognized by anyone other than itself (governing bodies).This includes our neighbors to the south, the AMA and the Natc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
borus Posted August 25, 2016 Report Share Posted August 25, 2016 Steve, are you the sole decision maker for the CMA or is it a democratic organization ? The correct answer is that you will receive all feedback and suggestions and give them careful thought. The riders feedback should be presented to the TAC for consideration. Then of course on to the CMA board. I have sponsored riders at both the CMA and WTC Championships. From my perspective I'm pleased that there are trials of this status for them to ride. Keep up the good work. You have been provided feedback from the very riders, sponsors and importer you want to join the CMA. Bashing the WTC is not going to convince anyone to join the CMA, especially in a public forum. Your mandate should be to talk to the viability, inclusiveness, willingness to change and strengths of the CMA to the benefit of the competitive trials riders across Canada, and as our USA friends say, stay on message and read from the prompters. I have a good friend on the TAC, do I need to ask him to clarify what you are saying? We have SOVT trials held here at my property, they are neither CMA or WTC. I will continue to asses the CMA and WTC on how they may help trials prosper in Canada, I am always open to change, I do see the benefits and drawbacks of both groups but: If I get back to competing it will be with the SOVT group for now. That's my feedback. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve fracy Posted August 26, 2016 Report Share Posted August 26, 2016 Bob: Thanks for your feedback. I was fortunate enough to not only meet your friend but have some really great meanngfull dialogue. It was very important and I enjoyed it. Perhaps you should talk to him to find out the scope of the what the TAC is doing and our mandate. I find it quite interesting that anytime questions are raised about the legitimacy of WTc and its motives, its classified as bashing. As an importer of trials bikes, of course the smart thing for you to do is associate with both entities. Thats business. The TAC is about the Sport, in Canada. Feedback is always good, but doesnt offer the same benefits of actually doing something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael_t Posted August 26, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 26, 2016 Seriously... Hey Borus, I hope you realize we truly appreciate all you have done and are doing to support and sponsor the sport here in Canada over the past few years (and me personally last year). Funny enough I had a note from Marilyn (head of the CMA) wondering why the AMA and the Natc get soo much better sponsorship support than the CMA does... Regards, Michael Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
borus Posted August 26, 2016 Report Share Posted August 26, 2016 It's real simple, to stay in business you have to know your market, deliver a quality product, listen to your customers, continually improve your service, deliver an effective marketing campaign and above all stay humble. Learn from the past and have a strategy for today, tomorrow, next year and 3 to 5 year away. I would also ask each organization what their succession plan is when the current leaders exit. I guess what the dueling trials organizations should do is ask themselves if they are truly following these principles or is it something else? Funny how most of our sponsored riders are your every day enthusiast with a passion for their sport. Trials is doing better than ever in Canada, I can guarantee that, but you don't see that same increase in the competitions. These so called National organizations need to understand why there is no growth in competition membership. I don't want to hear one organization comment or slam the other. I want to hear what they are doing themselves to improve. For all those out there supporting the sport in a positive and supportive way, congrats, keep up the good work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billyt Posted August 27, 2016 Report Share Posted August 27, 2016 What a confusing post. VHS vs Betamax, Poutine or no poutine with my pom de frit... As a Canadian currently residing in the USA and riding trials I have much interest in these posts. When I return to Canada to live and hopefully to ride what would be your suggestion WTC or CMA? What are the pros and cons in simple succinct language please. Merci mes amis............ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael_t Posted August 27, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 27, 2016 Ride both or whatever is available where you end up living... Most places you will only have one choice. It has much less to do with riding events and much more to do with putting on events. As I see it the WTC believes in minimal cost events to get more riders out. The CMA promotes having international FIM status (at a cost)... Both organizations put on great events, so you can't go wrong. BTW we no longer use video tapes in Canada it is all PVR and go with the Poutine with a cold beer to wash it down (life is too short not to enjoy it) !!! just my .02 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billyt Posted August 27, 2016 Report Share Posted August 27, 2016 Hi Michael Thanks for the reply post. You wrote: "It has much less to do with riding events and much more to do with putting on events" can you please elaborate on what you meant by that? "As I see it the WTC believes in minimal cost events to get more riders out." so the CMA sanctioned event is a money thing? Are the section rules the same? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael_t Posted August 29, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 29, 2016 I just mean both organizations put on good trials events so as a rider it makes little difference as far as riding the sections. The big difference is as an organizer you have to pay for insurance (either from the CMA or your own insurance, typically $5M liability) WTC provides this for free. In addition if you put on a CMA event all the riders have to pay $80 to join the CMA this goes to the CMA but they are very clear that the money does not come back to the local trials community in any way (I have no idea how much goes to the FIM). All the events we put on here in NS as WTC sanctioned events are free... no membership cost no event cost (and we actually have a few that we pay riders to take part in). The WTC has its own separate rule book... http://www.worldtrialscanada.com/WTCObservedTrialsRules2013.pdf I'm sure the CMA has a rule book as well as I don't think they follow FIM no stop... but can't say for sure as I have not seen it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billyt Posted August 29, 2016 Report Share Posted August 29, 2016 (edited) Thank you Michael. All good stuff indeed. I will certainly educate myself on all things WTC. When can we expect to see a World round back in Canada? What does WTC have up their sleeve to bring the big boys over to Canada. In the past when there was a USA world round Canada tried to put one on also to take advantage of the world riders being over in the this continent. I believe they (NATC) are trying to put a world round on in northern AZ in 2017 care to share on how the WTC plans to capitalize/align on the US world round ??? Will WTC be sending a Trials De Nation team over to compete? Sorry for all the questions, there is so much going on up there and I feel homesick..... Edited August 29, 2016 by billyt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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