Wtc Vs Cma - Why Not Have Both?

[michael_t]

As I see it the WTC is more of the entry level into the sport. Once a group of riders or a club gets to the point where they are interested in international competition the CMA/FIM has to come into play. This is why I believe there is a need for both groups. The issue we had locally was that the riders didn't see the value in the CMA  so we went for a number of years with no events at all. As Steve points out there are other options besides the WTC, like having events without any insurance typically nobody likes to take full responsibility for these and they don't get much bigger than a few friends riding on their own property or on land without proper permission. You could pay for your own insurance but it is price prohibitive for a group of less than 50 riders or so.

 

Our local group typically donate a few hundred dollars to the TdN team each year. I should note that I asked the CMA about this and they stated that they do not financially support the TdN team as it is against their policy to support events outside Canada... so we give the funds directly to the riders.

 

I tried very hard to come up with a solution that would see our group supporting the CMA in someway, I do believe it is needed but as a small group of lower level riders we could not come up with anything that made sense financially... the local feeling from both riders and sponsors was any support/funds we can raise should stay local to support the sport to help it grow.

       

[billyt]

Hi Michael.

 

You had sparked my interest and curiousity around the WTC & the CMA.   I took it upon my self to get educated as much as I could.  

After much Googiling I am even more confused.   Here is where my mind gets messed up.  

 

Trials event fees:  While the CMA charges a yearly CMA dues and the WTC currently does not, by WEC own verbiage on their web site they state "the WTC trials events are subsidized by the WEC and that they will charge a yearly fee in the near future".  Meaning WTC trials events will have a yearly due to pay.  

 

The WEC currently charges riders to ride WEC events and a yearly due. As it will in the near future for WTC events. 

 

The WEC site also states that 

 

"The Motorcyclists Confederation of Canada (MCC) is the national not-for-profit advocacy organization for the promotion of motorcycling interests."

 

The CMA is also a non profit organization. 

 

"History of the MCC

On the MCC web site   "As recently as 2004, there was no national organization fostering the growth and development of motorcycling in Canada."

 

The above statement by the MCC is not correct s the CMA was founded in 1946 for the same purpose. 

 

ABOUT THE CMA

The Canadian Motorcycle Association was founded in 1946 and incorporated federally as a Not for Profit in 1957. We are Canada's National Association for motorcyclists, and are proud to be celebrating 70 years of service to our community.

Since 1950 we have been affiliated with the World Governing Body, Federation Internationale de Motocyclisme (FIM) and are responsible to oversee their interests in motorcycling and snowmobiling throughout Canada.

The Association, together with its sister federation, American Motorcyclist Association, is a founding member (1998) of FIM North America, a continental body of the FIM.

 

 As for the strange name of World Trials Canada it becomes more apparent when you read this news statement released by the WEC (World Enduro Canada).

 

Feb 12, 2011: WEC Announces the formation of World Trials Canada

As of February 12th, 2011, the trials division of the WEC will now be recognized as WTC--World Trials Canada. The name change is to reflect the trials section of the WEC as its own entity. The name will represent the global position of trials in Canada while continuing to push the limits of our sport in this country.

Now in its third full year of successfully operating the only truly national championship for many years in Canada, the WTC will continue to be the leader in elevating not only the public image of trials in Canada, but the quality of the events.

The WTC understands that this is the beginning of many exciting announcements regarding the future of trials in Canada, and it remains dedicated to making all aspects of the sport grow.

The WTC is formalizing the announcement of the WTC trials council, which has, in fac, been in place for over three years. The council will be in charge of scheduling and governing the national trials body with the help of the following members: Dave Rhodes (BC), Harold Pospisil (Alberta), Sean Weisner (Ontario), Martin Roy and Stephen Fotheringham (Quebec).

The name change is to reflect the trials section of the WEC as its own entity.  

 

 

This is financial agenda.

 

If the WTC & WEC is trying to promote Canadian trials within the larger trial global context how can they do so when they have no official relationship outside of Canada or the FIM?  

 

How many Canadian world round has the WTC put on to date compared to how many the CMA has put on?

 

The CMA sponsors the Canadian TDN team and also selects the TDN team.  

 

This is all very confusing and makes me wonder what is really going on up there as I a duck by any other name is still a duck.   

 

I think this is more of a political game by two waring factions that do not like each other.

 

As for WTC trial events rules  I quote from the WTC web site:

 

 

"Scoring. The scoring method outlined below is the standard method of scoring used in WTC sanctioned trials and is generally consistent with the scoring rules used in the National Championship events of FIM affiliated countries and in the FIM Trials World Championship events. "

 

If the CMA events go by FIM rules and affiliate countries then the WTC is going by CMA rules at the events.

 

I see no benefit in switching my old establish credit card to a newer credit card that promises lower introductory interest rates to get me on board and then switches me over to a higher interest rate. At least I can travel internationally with my CMA membership and it is honored in the USA by the AMA.  

 

Help me understand this Michael. 

 

Respectfully

 

 

 

Edited August 31, 2016 by billyt

[michael_t]

It is truly a head scratcher isn't it. Given the size of trials in Canada it seems more like a family feud than 2 warring factions. I truly wish people could just get along which is why as a rider and a promoter I started this thread.

Seems that some of the websites you visited have not been updated in a while... From some of the things that Steve has posted in the past it may very well have been assumed that at some point the WTC would take on the FIM designation and need to charge people but 6 years into it that seems highly unlikely. So if the organization has the backing of MCC (which the majority of large motorcycle importers including KTM, Honda, Suzuki, Kawasaki... etc pay into for every bike sold in Canada) and no real costs why would they charge members a fee ???

The MCC off road council has been very generous in supporting off road riding across the country on many fronts - most notably provincial off road association such as NSORRA.

Even if it is all a big trick to get 100s of people riding trials before starting to ask them for money, I'm not sure I see the downside. As it is they are asking for nothing and offering very little but the opportunity to make the sport more accessible for people who would like to try it. On the other side of things, the CMA is asking for money and also offering very little other than international FIM recognition which unfortunately is not worth $80 a year for most of our local riders. I hope the CMA carries on and is successful for those elite riders who want to ride at that level but I also support the idea of having other options... as to the title of this thread why not have both?

[michael_t]

Marilynn agreed that I could share our my conversation with her so as far as supporting TdN goes... 

 

 

CMA have never been able to provide funding for any of our international team projects and there is a policy that stipulates that they can't even if they had the money.

The reasoning behind this (many years ago) was that if funding is available it should first be provided to projects within Canada and which would benefit more of the members.

 

If they were a wealthy organization they would likely do both but they struggle because motorcycling is very splintered in Canada and not everyone supports them.

 

 

But on further discussion (as I noted before) if additional funds are raised (outside your $80) then: ... 

the priorities TAC is looking for funding for.

They are -

support for riders to attend the CMA National Championships

support for riders to attend the FIM North America Championships

support for riders attending the Trial des Nations.

 

 

I did make an effort to find support for these priorities but people preferred to support local efforts. I will continue to look for support for these priorities although some times it seems a little thankless.

 

Regards,

Edited September 2, 2016 by michael_t

[billyt]

Michael

 

At least we agree on one thing it is a mess..........

 

Here is my conclusion:

 

Until the officials of the CMA and the WEC/WTC sign in and join in on this provocative subject it is our interpretation, conjecture, assumptions, hypothesis.

 

 

However in saying that there is no interpretation, conjecture, assumptions, hypothesis around clearly written facts on public forums by the WTC, CMM, WEC.

 

Such as:

 

1. The MCC web site stating  "As recently as 2004, there was no national organization fostering the growth and development of motorcycling in Canada.".  Yet the CMA was founded in 1946 for promoting motorcycling in Canada. 

 

​2.  The WEC charges a yearly membership dues and a fee to ride a WEC event and is the legal owner of the WTC entity. 

 

3. The WEC has stated on a public forum that the WTC events are currently subsidized and that will at some point in time change.

 

4. The WTC has adopted the CMA trials rules as used by the FIM.

 

5.  The controversial name of World Trials Canada came from World Enduro Canada association  which is also confusing the World enduro riders.   Kind of like the US World series that is made up of 99% US teams with one sole Canadian team.  So how can it be the "world series"baseball league.

 

​6. Many of the WTC events offer insurance policies thru one of the event sponsors who is an insurance provider.

 

7.  The chances of the WTC putting on a world round in Canada are slim to none and will still rely on the CMA to do so.     With this being said how can they WTC fulfill their mission statement of "promoting Canadian trials on the global stage"?

 

Lets see if you can answer one simple question with a succinct answer:  

                     Are the above 7 points  fact or fiction.

 

 

​In order to get some truths to all theses facts I would suggest that an official member of the WTC defend or dispute the facts, not you or me!

 

​If not, then these posting controversial thoughts are as useful as a "Which bike is best" post.    As we all know is very subjective and provocative, going around in circles and getting us no where.   

 

This type of post is at the point where fact is no longer taking into consideration but rather winning political points of contention becomes the agenda.      

 

The "Which bike is best" question after a while sees readers logging on to get a chuckle out of the remaining stalwarts defending their brand of bike as does this post.  

 

You stated " Seems that some of the websites you visited have not been updated in a while"  quite the contrary.  The WEC, WTC and MCC are all up to date with current results posted.  Even if they where not up up to-date

past statement are still past statements of intent.  

   

 

Long live trials in Canada regardless of affiliation.      

 

Respectfully

 

BillyT 

Edited September 2, 2016 by billyt

[derek t]

I generally do not join in on these conversations, as I am on th CMA executive committee and am the current CMA Rep, for the provinces of Saskatchewan and Manitoba. I am not here as an official of the CMA, but as a trials rider of 35 years.

In my younger years I benefited and enjoyed from the services of the CMA. I was able to ride world championship events, hosted in Canada and earn an FIM license to compete abroad for several years. They provided me with the technical support, contacts and advice to allow to establish myself in Europe. The service that has been weakened, since I utilized it, but I hope will remain, while young riders in my club aspire to ride abroad, as I did.

In later years they provided me with the guidance and support to start a trials club in a province that had never had one. The fees are shockingly low, for the support provided in expanding Trials into a new territory.

I know several strong supporters of the WTC well and consider them friends. I wouldn't want to speak on why they may not wish to support the CMA. I value the fact that CMA is not for profit and is composed entirely of riders and organizers. The Board of directors is completely composed of the people who practice, or organize motorcycle activities and sports. Nobody can personally gain financially from decisions made by the Board. This makes exempt promoters, importers and dealers of motorcycle equipment, from holding such positions.

The financial model of the CMA is based completely on membership, affiliation, training and sanction fees. All very low in the big picture of fees. Thus the riders fund this organization and direct the organization with their input. Good governance, safety and equality are forefront of what most members aspire to achieve, when proposing changes to rules and sporting code.

As pointed out above by Michael, the WTC is backed by the WEC, who is backed by the MCC. This model makes me uncomfortable. Partly because entities who stand to make money off sport are governing the sport. Can money making entities be trusted to have the best interest of rider safety, course safety, good governance, if it mean less sales? It feels a little bit like the Wolf is guarding the henhouse.

Secondly with players like Honda, Yamaha, Suzuki on th MCC, would small industry trials manufacturers like JotaGas, Vertigo, TRS, be able to direct the direction of MCC $$$, to build trials, if the CMA is gone . Industry is now controlling sport?

Until Honda, Yamaha and Suzuki can sell 100,000 units each, annually of their latest trials models, why would they invest heavily, in our sport, when they can just sponsor MX, in a sport they still command large market share.

I don't doubt the dedication of the trials people on the ground supporting the WTC. I particularly find it interesting how Michael's Maritime club has developed, as our SFTA club is roughly the same age. I just question the motives of an organization that has so many veils, to realize it is industry driven and maybe has no interest in the growth of and survival of Trials, but rather the destruction of a rider based organization, the CMA. In turn they tell us they are supporting riders, then why not support the CMA, who has no veils of who they represent and have 70 years of service to back them up?

[derek t]

I apologize. I typed that on my smartphone with paragraph breaks, not sure why it came out like that. It really wasn't a single breath rant.

Cheers

[billyt]

Well said Derek.     

 

[michael_t]

Hi BillyT, I'm a bit confused with your post... you ask me to answer 7 questions with one answer and then say anything you or I might say is pointless... I would say the fact is just because somebody posts something on the internet doesn't make it true.

 

Please realize I personally have absolutely nothing against the CMA and I respect the fact that Marilynn chooses not to visit forums. She did send me an email to let me know somebody had contacted her about me posting here... I let her know what I had posted and she said she was fine with it.

 

Hi Derek, I thought your post was great as it really helps to see your point of view. As you say we are both in a similar situation as far as getting things going in our areas. It often comes down to 1 or 2 individuals who decide to try to build something that really make all the difference. You came into this from a pro riders perspective who had experienced great support from the CMA in the past, so the path you choose makes perfect sense. I came into this in a different era and from a different perspective. Here in NS we had legislation changes that could have spelled the end of off road riding (other than closed course riding). I got involved with a few others and with the support of the Provincial Government, National Government and the MCC, we started the NSORRA to organize off road motorcycle riding in the province. I am very proud of the fact that NSORRA now has over 900 members. As part of that organization we had a struggling Hare Scrambles series that was sanctioned by the CMA (we were lucky to get 20 riders out to most of the races) and our CMA sanctioned trials events had stopped completely. For Scrambles we moved away from the CMA got our own insurance and sanctioned our own races. We also secured roughly $200k in funding to build ride areas and hire a half time admin person. The Scrambles series is now getting roughly 150 riders per event and even has its own electronic timing system. We also started a trials series which now has 5 or 6 events a year

 

I know $80 is nothing these days but we actually had a guy drive over 100 km to a CMA scramble with a nice truck and new bike and when he was told he would have to join the CMA to race he loaded up and drove home ??? - and it was only $60 back then. This makes absolutely no sense to me but it did leave an impression.

 

I get the feeling that people feel if the WTC went away people would have no option but to join the CMA... they are forgetting the very real option of simply not riding in sanctioned events or any events at all. 

 

As a person that is trying to grow a sport I feel I need to listen to the riders and the riders in this area are very clear they are not interested in returning to the CMA... Sending money West and see nothing return to the East really seems to rub people here the wrong way... although I am glad to hear some of the money did manage to get to you and help your trials career.

 

As far as sponsors go I am not sure what the fear is all about... Believe it or not money is not the root of all evil. It takes investment to make things grow. Currently there is huge potential for investment into the sport of Trials in North America. Honda has invested heavily in bringing trials bikes back into showrooms. Our local trials shop sells a bike every year or 2 by contrast the Honda dealer sold out the 6 bikes he brought in and has ordered 2 more. The distributers are eager to invest they are happy to loan bikes and sponsor riders. If we don't allow them the opportunity to invest in our sport to help it grow for the benefit of all it will most likely just die off again. If you are really afraid that having sponsors will ruin the sport you really need to reconsider your affiliation with the FIM - just sayin! 

 

Here is a question for people... We are putting on a trials demo at the Wharf Rat Rally this weekend (big biker bash) the hope is to make trials more visible to a large group of motorcycle enthusiast. I helped arrange it and put it under our insurance but can't attend. We had 4 riders volunteer to put on a demo and I loaned my bike for anyone who wanted to give it a try. The Rally is providing room and board and although it is a 4 day event we said we would just do Saturday and Sunday. They are paying us $2k. I will receive the cheque on behalf of NSORRA and can then spend it. If you where me would you write a cheque to the CMA to cover our 20 local riders $80 membership fee and use the remainder to cover CMA event sanctioning fees? or would you keep the money local and spend it on developing a training area, bringing in pro trials riders for training, buying tape...etc? or just pay the riders $500 each to cover their  travel and time? Or as an organizer pocket the money for all the time and effort I put into this sport?      ... no answer is required just something to think about               

                    

[billyt]

"Hi BillyT, I'm a bit confused with your post... you ask me to answer 7 questions with one answer and then say anything you or I might say is pointless... I would say the fact is just because somebody posts something on the internet doesn't make it true."

 

​No need to be confused.   I asked you to answer either yes or no to the facts that are written on the WTC, MCC WEC websites?     Simple.  As usual you have avoided a direct question and beat around the bush.

 

 

As for   " I would say the fact is just because somebody posts something on the internet doesn't make it true."   This is not a "somebody it is an organization making these statements .  

 

This  dumbfound me, are you saying I should not trust anything that the WTC, WEC, MCC write on their sites?   

 

​This is not  a debate, just me asking you for simple yes or no to the 7 written facts.

 

When I stated that we need the official spokesperson from CMA, WTC,WEC, CMM  I was referring to what the their intent, agenda, objectives where with trials as we move forward.  Clear?

Edited September 2, 2016 by billyt

[michael_t]

Yes that is now clear and I agree whole heartily it would be best if the organizations could speak for themselves.

 

When you started to weigh into the conversation a few posts ago, it sort of sounded like you were new to trials in Canada and genuinely looking for answers... As this has progressed it seems that may not be 100% accurate and if you believe everything you read on the internet it would seem you and Steve have been good friends for a long time http://www.trialscentral.com/forums/topic/35898-another-canuck-eh/

 

I can't answer officially but am always happy to do the best I can to give my opinion (for what it is worth). So in reference to your 7 questions here is my opinion

      

1. The MCC web site stating  "As recently as 2004, there was no national organization fostering the growth and development of motorcycling in Canada.".  Yet the CMA was founded in 1946 for promoting motorcycling in Canada. 

 

- Both these statement are true maybe the MCC where not aware what all the CMA was doing in 2004 from my perspective they where doing little top promote trials in 2004 and really didn't start getting their act together until a couple years ago when Steve rejoined them and started the TAC.

 

​2.  The WEC charges a yearly membership dues and a fee to ride a WEC event and is the legal owner of the WTC entity. 

 

- This is true however I do not believe the WTC is any more of a legal entity than the TAC is a legal entity of the CMA. It is also worth noting that there is additional insurance charges when the "event" is a race a trials event is not considered to be a "race" so there is no additional charge (unless you decide to serve liquor at the event .     

 

3. The WEC has stated on a public forum that the WTC events are currently subsidized and that will at some point in time change.

 

- This is true I believe it was posted in 2011 and as far as I know there is no current intention to change things.

 

4. The WTC has adopted the CMA trials rules as used by the FIM.

- The WTC rules where originally based on the FIM rules but are updated by vote of the members we voted to not follow the FIM into the world of non stop trials so no we are not using current FIM rules.   

 

5.  The controversial name of World Trials Canada came from World Enduro Canada association  which is also confusing the World enduro riders.   Kind of like the US World series that is made up of 99% US teams with one sole Canadian team.  So how can it be the "world series"baseball league.

 

- This is true but I am promoting that we change the name... I can think of a bunch of names but it will need to go to a vote.

 

​6. Many of the WTC events offer insurance policies thru one of the event sponsors who is an insurance provider.

 

- Wiesner insurance sponsors the WTC however as far as I know Oasis is the insurance company that the WTC uses to provide event insurance and as mentioned above it is a general liability policy that covers all events at no additional charge... Way better than the CMA charging extra for each event.   

 

7.  The chances of the WTC putting on a world round in Canada are slim to none and will still rely on the CMA to do so.     With this being said how can they WTC fulfill their mission statement of "promoting Canadian trials on the global stage"?

 - I agree that as things stand today only the CMA is able to put on a world round in Canada and I think it would be great if they did. If it was up to me I would have the WTC jump behind such an event with large sponsorship money specifically for the event as a MCC "project"... If the CMA would accept it.   

 

Hope that helps...

 

[billyt]

Michael your honesty is VERY appreciated.  And the succinct answers are all I wanted.

 

My curiosity as to what is going on up there is genuine.  I did not mean to hide my relationship or ties to Canada.  

 

How could I as Dave R has known me for almost 20 years.

 

I have been close friends with Steve for almost 34 years.

 

My skill level in trials is all downhill currently as I am 60 years old now.

 

Been riding for about thirty five years. Been a minder/mechanic at three world rounds and fell off more times than I can remember.

 

What about your experience in the trials community, how long have you been riding?

 

As for the CMA vs WTC it is  a mess........  They both have their issues and challenges.  The thing that makes the more experienced of us upset is when people who are relatively new to the sport go up against those of us who have paid their dues in blood sweat and fives through the years.  

 

Steve wears his heart on his sleeve and says what is on his mind. We can find fault with that, however you will not find a person who is more knowledgeable or passionate about the sport in Canada and for that we should be grateful.  It will take passion and a  collective meeting of the minds to promote and grow trials in Canada.  The sooner politics are put aside the better.

 

Some advise from an really old trials fart like me.   Use your passion for change in Canada wisely and couple it with Steve's knowledge and passion for the sport.  Going up against the old guard will never be good.  

 

Be careful who you align with and don't be blinded by the bling.  

 

It will take people with passion to change things.  Find common ground with Steve and build upon that.

 

Respectfully

 

BillyT      

 

 

 

    

 

 

[michael_t]

I'm trying ... even though it may not always seem that way.

 

I really would like to see everyone in trials succeed. I'm only 53 so hopefully have a few more years to give to the sport. Some times it takes a little fresh blood to get things stirred up and moving. I am a big supporter of all the TAC members and would be happy to be part of it... I was super impressed that the majority of the TAC members made it to support Derek's event and/or had their kids compete...  it certainly shows that they are living up to the priorities they had laid out.

 

I did ask Marilynn about joining the TAC and she stated that is was purely up to Steve to name who he wants on the TAC and he has my email and phone number. I guess I would also need to pony up the $80 to be able to volunteer my time to help out.

 

Just out of interest do you still pay CMA dues to support the organization? If not, might I suggest you make a donation specifically to one of their priorities listed above. Given the US dollar it is a great bargain and if you specify choose one of the priorities you know it will only be used for Trials (that is what I do) better yet just give it to Steve in support of his son. Every little bit helps.   

[billyt]

Yes indeed fresh blood is great.  Fresh blood without respect to the old stale blood is bad.  

 

Check out who is all at the party before you get in bed with anybody LOL   

 

I PM you........

[michael_t]

Thanks for the note.

 

I have spent the last 9 years checking out who is at the different parties (even took a trip out to BC) and I really do like everyone I have met so far.  Even if they don't all seem to like each other I'm pretty sure they are way different people when they are on a bike instead of computer!

 

I would also say that some are just way harder to get in bed with and they want to be paid for the pleasure. To me it is more about a long term commitment and mutual respect than it is about the money or how great they think they once where but that is just the way I am .