charlie prescott Posted January 12, 2016 Report Share Posted January 12, 2016 Hi Guy's. Sorry, It was the Genie. Spirit thing, A diversion to get the page back up. But Patrik has more spirit than most, and rides his bikes for FUN.The nus. Regards Charlie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norman_wisdom Posted January 12, 2016 Report Share Posted January 12, 2016 (edited) seems we ve been doing just this in yarkshire for a fair old while with YCMCC pre unit trials.. single route classes for rigid preunits twins owt esles is a special.. or if thats not definitive how about the big bike series.. just for bangers of 350 or greater rigid and springers NO two strokes/cubs.. one simple route only.. While I can understand the popularity of a desire to exclude 2 strokes based on their modern incarnations, pick up even the earliest editions of Max King's book and you'll see plenty of them, so why try and airbrush them out of 'TradTrials '? A simple rule that 2Ts are allowed, but only those with leading link forks (internal shocks/damping ONLY) or from specific manufacturers (Dunlop, like the early rigid James', Armstrong, Greeves etc) would allow a far wider range of bikes eligibility and be a better reflection of true period usage while not giving them an unfair advantage. Norman Edited January 12, 2016 by norman_wisdom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laird387 Posted January 12, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2016 While I can understand the popularity of a desire to exclude 2 strokes based on their modern incarnations, pick up even the earliest editions of Max King's book and you'll see plenty of them, so why try and airbrush them out of 'TradTrials '? A simple rule that 2Ts are allowed, but only those with leading link forks (and internal shocks/damping ONLY) allows a far wider range of bikes eligibility while reflecting period usage and not giving them an unfair advantage. Norman Who suggested that we are trying to exclude twostrokes - don't forget Max King was a close personal friend of mine and I have even published, in ORRe, the book that he wanted to publish but sadly illness prevented it - so I am a believer......... I have also published a comprehensive history of the Francis-Barnett trials teams - so that ought to suggest I have no axe to grind abut twostrokes. Like Arthur Lampkin my first 'real' trials bike was a little James - and when I say 'real' I mean one that I didn't ride to work all week, then trial at the week-end. My first bike was a rigid AJS with girder forks - and that was ridden every day, rain, snow or shine to get me to work. My sole argument - and the real reason for Traditional Trials - is to eliminate the unnecessary creation of increasingly tight sections that persuade people to 'bend' the eligibility rules by creating machines that could not have existed in the period that they claim to represent. Pre-65 never referred to twostrokes or C15s, etc. The correct original classification of Pre-65 referred solely to Pre-unit models, and Pre-70 was the determining age for the unit construction, including twostroke, models. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laird387 Posted January 12, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2016 Nice natural section, no need for loads of flags, totally original bike, full Barbour suit worn and grim determination on Tiger's face! And I'm sure Tiger (but don't let Bryan hear you use that nickname!) is riding in one of the typical Yorks and Lancs Classic sections, before they split into Yorks Classic and Red Rose Classic to keep the numbers manageable. One of my biggest regrets is that I can't find just why Yorks Classic don't want to have Photoreports these days - and I know they have an excellent website - but not everyone uses that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
japes1275 Posted January 12, 2016 Report Share Posted January 12, 2016 I'm not 100% sure Deryk but I think that photo is from the Shawforth Shake, maybe a bit before the Y&L days. It's probably unfair to post a black and white photo, it would look old and traditional even if it had been taken yesterday! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laird387 Posted January 12, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2016 I'm not 100% sure Deryk but I think that photo is from the Shawforth Shake, maybe a bit before the Y&L days. It's probably unfair to post a black and white photo, it would look old and traditional even if it had been taken yesterday! Sorry japes, But my archive of more than 300,000 images is 98% black and white - 'cos in the days of film that we developed at home when we got back from the trial then printed photos and sent them off to, in my case Morecambe, for TMX we only had black and white - colour film had to be posted off to Hemel Hempstead in those days - and took a week before you saw it.... The current digital world is so different. I agreee it could have been a Shake image, Bryan did ride in the 1972 Bigger Banger trial that was renamed when we ran it in 1973 as the Shaforth Shake - the name being suggested by Stan Pitts of West Leeds. Enjoy Deryk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve_earle Posted January 12, 2016 Report Share Posted January 12, 2016 This might be of interest, We have only briefly discussed it at the last meeting. We will decide the final format of the trial depending on interest and riders wishing to attend and choose our best venue for a classic event. Will be one or 2 routes, Advance promises to observe on the day will determine on how many sections we will have or if we can split the sections into pre 65 sections and seperate twinshock sections. Any input and help will be useful so we can tailor the trial to suit the majority of entrants. From our website: walthamchasetrials.co.uk The Keith Marshal Classic Trial We will be adding an additional trial to the calendar – The Keith Marshall Classic – for Pre65, Twin-shocks and air cooled mono’s only – including TY80’s. No hopping, no jumping, no logs and no mud will be in the rules! Keep an eye on the website for further details. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laird387 Posted January 13, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 13, 2016 (edited) Hi steve, One of the first things to do is to get your head round the fact that the aim of the game, as it were, is to create a trial in which the sections are set as they would have been before 1965 - so how about asking somebody who knows? First point, anybody who rode in a trial before 1965 has to be at least sixty-seven years old - so it is definitely the time to ask your club grandads first, where did they ride - or even where did they go to watch!!!!! Are there any groups of sections that nobody has used for years simply because they were no longer deemed difficult enough........ Look at as many old photographs of your club events and try to work out where they used to put the markers. When we decided to reinstate a Classic Experts trial in the Rhayader area, I trawled all the old photographs of 'Ashfield', then with Mr Price's permission went and put the markers on exactly the same trees as had been used in the late 1950's - it proved to be an excellent idea - especially among the riders, including Mick Andrews who said it took him back years and made the day even more memorable for him. Were any of the Hoad sections in your area, or Meon Valley or Buriton? Then remember - your aim is to give the riders a good ride, then they will come back and could even persuade their mates to come along next time.............. Edited January 13, 2016 by laird387 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve_earle Posted January 13, 2016 Report Share Posted January 13, 2016 I think the ground in Buriton is used by Bognor club that had some Hoad sections, We use some ground at the other end of Buriton but It's not suitable for older machines as its mainly just steeper banks on the side of hills. Butser would be a good venue if it was not so steep. Our aim is to keep it over simple and not too serious, I plan to take a back seat and let the older guys play! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laird387 Posted January 14, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 14, 2016 While I can understand the popularity of a desire to exclude 2 strokes based on their modern incarnations, pick up even the earliest editions of Max King's book and you'll see plenty of them, so why try and airbrush them out of 'TradTrials '? A simple rule that 2Ts are allowed, but only those with leading link forks (internal shocks/damping ONLY) or from specific manufacturers (Dunlop, like the early rigid James', Armstrong, Greeves etc) would allow a far wider range of bikes eligibility and be a better reflection of true period usage while not giving them an unfair advantage. Norman Hi Norman, The basic ideas behind Traditional Trials are: 1. To ease the job of course plotters - by removing the need to plan for various ability levels by setting alternative routes. 2. To remove the need to spend a fortune modifying any old bike - by creating trials with sections that those old bikes were meant to be ridden in. 3. To encourage more of the old bikes out from the backs of sheds - RIDE 'EM, DON'T HIDE 'EM. Finally, as an example of MY thoughts on twostrokes, I would welcome anybody with a Bantam that was so close to a standard road Bantam as this works Bantam ridden by Johnny Draper in the 1956 Scottish - and, yes, I'm sorry, but if you want to see several side-on photos, offside and nearside, or drive side and timing side, whatever is your preference - then the only place to find it is in ORRe. Enjoy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prototype Posted January 16, 2016 Report Share Posted January 16, 2016 TRAD Trials "Trials fun for everyone" 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie prescott Posted January 18, 2016 Report Share Posted January 18, 2016 Hi Guy's, Deryk. I have come up with one simple rule to determine if a bike should be classed as "Traditional" or not. A string-line, Staff, or Laser beam, shall be en-lined from the centre of the front and rear wheel spindles, if the engine crankshaft centre is more than 1"inch above this line the machine will be classed has a "Special". This is with the machine unladen, but a full tank of fuel will be allowed. No Shrader valves on the forks , or deflated shocks on the rear (if fitted). Guys, just let us know how you feel about this suggestion by just clicking the Like this button. Regards Charlie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old trials fanatic Posted January 18, 2016 Report Share Posted January 18, 2016 How are you going to accurately measure the centreline of the crankshaft without at least removing the outer covers ? or do intend stripping every motor ? Just asking as this immediately came to mind. Why not just state a maximum ground clearence ? Just nail a corresponding block to a plank and position the bike on it. If you can turn the wheels its a special. Just a thought. I'm not really bothered as i wouldnt be entering anyway but if you are going to scrutineer its got to be easy to verify and simple to use. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old trials fanatic Posted January 21, 2016 Report Share Posted January 21, 2016 Just to throw another spanner in the works re the crankshaft centreline not being above the spindle height etc and limiting ground clearance. What about Greeves Scottish etc. They have a MASSIVE beam under the motor necessitating in the motor riding unduly high and also limiting the ground clearance at the same time. So what actually are you trying to achieve Charlie ? Are you wishing to exclude Greeves ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie prescott Posted January 22, 2016 Report Share Posted January 22, 2016 Hi Guy's. Hi OTF. Just put a straight edge across the wheel spindles in the Max King Book and the Greeves would be within the limit set. Just done a page on the Norman Trial machines that seem to have very much been forgotten , and these would come into the same category, as Greeves and they would be OK too. We are not trying to exclude any machine but to just place them into a sensible category, for the "TRAD" format to work. The whole idea is to get riders back out on machines that they love, to have fun riding them, once again. I thought you were thinking along similar lines with Peak Classic? Regards Charlie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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