greeves Posted January 26, 2016 Report Share Posted January 26, 2016 Hi: As many of you know, the last years of Bultaco, the factory was in the hands of the workers unions operating as a cooperative. Production of the 199B models was very chaotic and nobody is sure which frame numbers really are the first and the last, being the last, most probably the last bike ever produced in Bultaco. With a group of friends we are trying to find the latest Bultaco 199B number we can, actually doing a research in facebook and Spanish forums. The latest frame number we have documented at the moment is JB-19914920-B Maybe you have a later frame number? Please let me know! 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pschrauber Posted January 26, 2016 Report Share Posted January 26, 2016 (edited) No my bike is with 19913348 is much to early. Why do You want to know the last number, the production number was stated by Francisco Herreros in his Bultaco book, the number was 17xx bikes when I remember right (forgot the last numbers) ... surly he might be wrong. The research might be difficult as due to the registration documents (I have some of different model 199b bikes) were all 199b models imported individually to Germany and Italy and thus got a separate customs treatment. Edited January 26, 2016 by pschrauber 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
big john Posted January 26, 2016 Report Share Posted January 26, 2016 Hola Greeves! my good friend. I have these models (more than one) and my numbers are all sub- 14000, so mine are like pschrauber's, much earlier than the last models. Mostly 1981 as mine are all UK road registered. I would imagine that Francisco Herreros book, which I have of course may be quite accurate in some respects but the model 199B is a different matter entirely. Regards, Big John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greeves Posted January 26, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 26, 2016 There is not a clear reason for why we want to find the latest Bultaco, and at a time there are so many why we would like to know... curiosity is strong and for sure books have no clue about what happened in the last days of Bultaco. Specially inside the factory dominated by the workers unions; chaos was big. Late bikes frame numbers... no control at all. The official factory records are not correct at all, and now we know that in the last months some bikes were stamped with the same frame and engine number to avoid taxes. After those bikes were exported to different markets; one to US, one to UK, one for Germany, one for Spain... The records we actually have, include the latest ones we know at the moment as 14893, 14894, 14912 and 14920. Do you have a later one? 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sherpa325 Posted January 27, 2016 Report Share Posted January 27, 2016 It would be interesting to know how the bikes were numbered, were all the 199 bikes numbered together consecutively, that is 199, 199A and 199B or did they start a new set of numbers for each series and if that is the case what number did each series start with, because they certainly didn't make 14000 199b's Cheers Greg 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greeves Posted January 27, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 27, 2016 (edited) We have some new clues: Registered at the moment the earlier and later 199B models we have are 19912920B and 19914920B, which talks about 2,000 bikes produced, when all books and registered data speak about 1,778 bikes from the 199B model. My question is: Were the numbers of 198B and 199B correlative, and adding both registered productions 270 + 1778 = 2,048 we have the total bikes produced of the B models both 250cc and 350cc? This is the only explanations I can find to the 2 registered frames, earlier and later we have at the moment. Edited January 27, 2016 by greeves 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dabber Posted January 27, 2016 Report Share Posted January 27, 2016 My 198B is xxx3946 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
big john Posted January 27, 2016 Report Share Posted January 27, 2016 By strange coincedence, I own a UK registered model 340cc 6-speed 199B motor in a 198B (250cc) frame. The original frame was destroyed in an accident, replaced with a donor 198B frame. The original frame was one of 40 modified to 'Vesty' specification by Comerfords and sold as their Vesterinen Replica. Big John 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigel dabster Posted January 27, 2016 Report Share Posted January 27, 2016 (edited) ive had pass through my hands/still own 3552 4288 3554 3003 4294 3540 4649 4619 3831, last two from spain. Edited January 27, 2016 by nigel dabster 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevem75 Posted January 27, 2016 Report Share Posted January 27, 2016 Anything could have happened near the end with Bultaco. It is my understanding from those that have worked at the factory that before 1980 all bikes that were assembled left the factory with matching numbers. In Franco era Spain the government was extremely stringent in this regard. They kept dibs on all exports to be sure the government got its share. If you now have a non matching numbers bike built before 1980 then it was changed after it left Spain. This I am absolutely sure of. When the 199B was being produced I do believe all record keeping was lost. By then Franco was long gone and the economic policies had changed. The 198 series bike were separate numbers altogether. They didn't combine production values. some years back I recorded every Bultaco serial number I came across. Be it eBay or other websites just to see if for example say 167 and 168 pursangs shared a production run. They didn't. I found identical numbers for both models. Also worth noting is serial number batches were sent to certain parts of the world. For example I know that model 75 Matadors with serial numbers between 2000 and 2200 were sent to western Canada. I know that model 167 pursangs in the 1500 range were sent to eastern u.s. And so on. Further research has also proven that the British importers regularly swapped engines in frames. I hear way more frequently of non matching numbers in England than here in North America. Maybe there were displacement laws at the time..... I don't know. But it seems that was the case. This new info regarding numbers in the 14920 range is fascinating. Id be interested see where this research goes Steve 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sherpa325 Posted January 27, 2016 Report Share Posted January 27, 2016 The problem as I see it that the earlier models all started their numbering at 0000 and the model numbers of the bikes fall within the published numbers produced, my model 92 has a 3,000 number for example. I think the three 199 series have been put together as one model hence the high numbers. My 199A's are 11,000 numbers and my 199B is 14033. What is interesting is why they kept the same 199 model number for the three quite different bikes whereas previously the 159, 183, and 191 all have different model numbers for what is essentially the same bike. Maybe it has something to do with government grants or concessions or even registration compliance - requirements. Cheers Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevem75 Posted January 27, 2016 Report Share Posted January 27, 2016 You could be quite correct. the rudimentary production numbers that are available are sometimes accurate and most times not. Example. The production list states only 500 M159 models were made ..... But I've owned 4703 so there was over 4000 of those produced. The other thing of note that happened through 79-80 was that North America in particular was starting to use the now standard 17 digit vin #. This may have been difficult for Bultaco to switch over to at the time as they were going through a lot of strife. Keeping the 199 199A and 199B numbering system was likely to keep things as simple as possible when everything else was falling apart Steve 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sherpa325 Posted January 28, 2016 Report Share Posted January 28, 2016 Yes I have always looked at the 159 numbers and thought they were suspect at 500, especially considering the model ran for a year - they had just won the first world championship- and it was the only 350 on the market. Maybe its supposed to be 5000 as the 183 is 5 months for 790 bikes and the 191 is 5 months for 1451 bikes. Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pschrauber Posted January 28, 2016 Report Share Posted January 28, 2016 In my personal opinion the frame engines are quite correct they begun with the 199 model: 199 : first number: 199.00.001 bikes made: 5.960 so last number: 199.05.960 199A: first number: 199.05.961-A bikes made: 6.915 so last number: 199.12.875-A 199B: first number: 199.12.876-B bikes made: 1.778 so last number: 199.14.653-B I looked up the other frame numbers of other custom and road register documentations I have: First document which sounds OK Bultaco No.: 199.13.314-B, Imported to Germany: 12.10.1981, through custom of Bad Reichenhall, first road registering in Germany: 21.01.1982. Second document is astonishing: Bultaco No.: 199.14.688-B, Imported to Germany: 30.06.1983, (through Switzerland (bike was former registered in CH)), through custom of Freiburg, first road registering in Germany: 30.06.1983. very interesting this number is 35 digits above 199.14.635 ... So another incident that there is a number mismatch ... start to get interesting ... but this theme hold me too long awake ... bed time ... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sherpa325 Posted January 28, 2016 Report Share Posted January 28, 2016 To keep things more orderly maybe? 199 0000 - 5960 199A 6000 - 12915 199B 13000 - 14778 Just a thought 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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