Entry Fees

[nigel dabster]

Thought I would come back to this.

Firstly I accept that trials is pretty cheap and in no way is it my intention to be overly critical of organising clubs.

What prompted me to write the post was a local trial being advertised with a £20 entry fee.I can remember when the entry fee for that trial was £2. I was pleased to see the club got a decent entry but I think it would still only be about 50 or 60% of the number of riders they would get when the fee was £2.  At the time I was earning £4.08 per hour, a fair but not exceptional rate for a welder. I now see comparable welders jobs being advertised between £8 and £11 per hour. IE the entry fee has gone from under 1/2 the hourly rate to about double it.

Inflation+ rises have an insidious effect that goes barely noticed. I know of quite a number of riders staying away from MX, Karting and Trials and they say costs including entry fees are a key factor.

I suspect disposable income in the 16 to 25 year old age range is possibly at an all time low. 

 

Regarding me and the other "greens" paying £10 to be a TC supporter, yes I really should get round to paying. I spend £80 (compulsory, £40 (compulsory) and £25 (suggested not compulsory) on other forums to do with my business. The big difference on these forums is you get accurate advice and on 2 of them insults are completely unknown. There is the odd bit of witty sarcasm on the £40 forum. Until about a year ago I used to spend about £40 on another forum but gave up my membership when the content started to drift away from the era I was interested in. Some other members were apparently of the same view and have started their own free forum.

 

You wouldnt get insults if you werent so innacurate and such an ar$e.

 

If you can get me a welder for £8 an hour i'll have two.

My romanian labourers get that.

[nigel dabster]

http://www.jobsite.co.uk/job/mig-fcaw-welders-955257506?utm_campaign=Indeed_Jobsite&utm_source=indeed&utm_medium=aggregator&sctr=EN&tmpl=lin&tid=752169&utm_content=&cid=msearche_indeed___A

 

£18 per hour

 

Gates head £14

https://www.adzuna.co.uk/jobs/details/352232435?v=71BDA1A7326C453E4B05A4BB26954B663CB5B752&se=yOCzC7V6Qz-rR5UCbZ9kQA

Edited February 19, 2016 by nigel dabster

[nigel dabster]

Regarding me and the other "greens" paying £10 to be a TC supporter, yes I really should get round to paying. I spend £80 (compulsory, £40 (compulsory) and £25 (suggested not compulsory) on other forums to do with my business. The big difference on these forums is you get accurate advice and on 2 of them insults are completely unknown. There is the odd bit of witty sarcasm on the £40 forum. Until about a year ago I used to spend about £40 on another forum but gave up my membership when the content started to drift away from the era I was interested in. Some other members were apparently of the same view and have started their own free forum.

 

Pay £10 on here you tightwad, at least that insult didnt cost me £40

Edited February 19, 2016 by nigel dabster

[dadof2]

http://www.cv-library.co.uk/cgi-bin/searchjobs.cgi?posted=28&search=1&fp=1&q=welder&geo=Bishop+Auckland%2C+County+Durham&distance=15&salarymin=&salarymax=&salarytype=annum&tempperm=Any

 

ND -  before you throw insults look at the above Job advert link. I would not pick up a welding torch for that but it does show the financial constraints some are facing.

 

Even if you pay your welders £18 an hour that is still less than a £20 entry fee whereas as a newly qualified welder my hour;y rate used to be more than twice the entry fee.

 

In spite of trying to disprove my point of view and saying I was inaccurate what you have written actually supports the point I was making. ENTRY FEES HAVE RISEN MUCH FASTER THAN PAY RATES.

 

Instead of throwing insults why do you not come up with reasons why autograss, a higher risk speed sport needing a circuit has so much lower entry fees than trials.

[rabie]

...come up with reasons why autograss, a higher risk speed sport needing a circuit has so much lower entry fees than trials

 

to what extent does the insurance (ie risk) component make up trials entry fees vs autograss?

 

i don't have MSA figure to hand for autograss, but trials (checking the current ACU price list) is £3 per rider (£2.20 for a passenger) ***that is just the insurance***

 

the inference of my previous post (and others) is that entry fee is used for different things.

 

my personal opinion is that it should be higher with the extra used to buy land, build sections, buy plant and pay lobbyists - but you make a valid case for an alternative

[spen]

Build sections?? I thought they grew out of the ground.....

[nigel dabster]

Build sections?? I thought they grew out of the ground.....

 

not round our way spen, its the only way sometimes.

Our local club with much effort by a dedicated 1 or 2 came to fruition a few years ago http://www.miltonbuzzard.com/miltonbuzzardmountfarm.html

 

It was a flattish piece of land before we had the bulldozer in and then 100tons of rock to date about.

[nigel dabster]

http://www.cv-library.co.uk/cgi-bin/searchjobs.cgi?posted=28&search=1&fp=1&q=welder&geo=Bishop+Auckland%2C+County+Durham&distance=15&salarymin=&salarymax=&salarytype=annum&tempperm=Any

 

ND -  before you throw insults look at the above Job advert link. I would not pick up a welding torch for that but it does show the financial constraints some are facing.

 

Even if you pay your welders £18 an hour that is still less than a £20 entry fee whereas as a newly qualified welder my hour;y rate used to be more than twice the entry fee.

 

In spite of trying to disprove my point of view and saying I was inaccurate what you have written actually supports the point I was making. ENTRY FEES HAVE RISEN MUCH FASTER THAN PAY RATES.

 

Instead of throwing insults why do you not come up with reasons why autograss, a higher risk speed sport needing a circuit has so much lower entry fees than trials.

 

This is where you get  silly.

Just because you say that at some point YOU were a welder and got x at some vague time and at that time exactly the entry fees were x/2 doesnt make it a) a fact or particularily relevent.

 

Its 2016 and times have changed, nothing costs "the same" name us one sport or pastime that is exactly in proportion?

Footbal compare that one, and as for autograss whats that got to do with trials?????

 

You may have a slightly valid point that its gone up but to compare it to one single trade at a particular point in time in a particular area of the north of england doesnt give any kind of accuracy or objectivity, just a finger in the air, surely even you can see that.

 

Mix in all the other factors like many clubs pay for land, insurance, health and saftey, sending officials to c o c training in rugby etc, i could go on but just accept that trials is very very good value compared to anything,except of course dad of 2 wages, back then.

[nigel dabster]

Not trying to disprove anything just trying to make you see just possibly maybe even a shadow of doubt that you could be ever so slightly not even 100% correct?

 

Besides how can you disprove a flaky generality with no specifics?

[dadof2]

I may not be 100% correct but in general I am certain that relative to the average wage of potential trials participants the cost of entry fees has risen.

The reason I quote Autograss is because if they can have entry fees of £6 why can't trials be less than £10. Trials and Autograss are very similar from many aspects, both are the lowest cost forms of 2 or 4 wheeled motor sport, both are mainly amateur with the organisation being done by unpaid volunteers and both need a bit of land and some marking out.

I agree to some extent with what Rabbie says, especially the land purchase issue. I quoted my wage but I know of a lot who were on similar and for many years I also had access to Chamber of Commerce wage figures for a range of industries and PAYE occupations and year on year entry fees increased more than PAYE pay rates.

Take the recent closure of the last deep coal mine, most of those men were on £30 to £40k. I reckon the majority of those will be lucky to get anywhere near that when they look for new work. Similar trend in industry after industry (Redcar Steel etc).

Look at the age of a lot, maybe the great majority of trials riders, 40 and 50 years old. Mortgage minimal or paid off, kids left home or earning and a reasonable bit of disposable income. Now look at the 16 to 25 year old group where new trials riders should be coming from, struggling to find a job, often poorly paid or having costly long commutes or student debt to pay off.

Increasing entry fees no mater how justifiable could do a lot of long term damage to the sport - it will price itself out of the market.

[gasgas249uk]

I agree with some of what you say , but whether it's 6 or 10 pounds is not going to make a difference to whether people ride trials.

[breagh]

Some folk here seem to be quite good at figures.

 

We net rounding it up £1 per rider at our club trials (£10 entry) only the membership fee gives us some breathing space.

 

This doesn't include paying for markers,punches;cards' trophys,prsentation costs.toilets,snacks and probably a lot more I really don't want to think about.( luckily we have some generous members)

 

Obviously a load of members time setting out and administrating..

 

If we had to pay a company to run a trial, how much would they have to charge to turn any sort of profit?

 

Anyone want to do it for a tenner a head?

 

 

[baldilocks]

When a a bike is £5k and kitting out a rider is say £300 i cant see that the entry fee being between £10 and £20 is really going to be a barrier.

[nigel dabster]

I may not be 100% correct but in general I am certain that relative to the average wage of potential trials participants the cost of entry fees has risen.

The reason I quote Autograss is because if they can have entry fees of £6 why can't trials be less than £10. Trials and Autograss are very similar from many aspects, both are the lowest cost forms of 2 or 4 wheeled motor sport, both are mainly amateur with the organisation being done by unpaid volunteers and both need a bit of land and some marking out.

I agree to some extent with what Rabbie says, especially the land purchase issue. I quoted my wage but I know of a lot who were on similar and for many years I also had access to Chamber of Commerce wage figures for a range of industries and PAYE occupations and year on year entry fees increased more than PAYE pay rates.

Take the recent closure of the last deep coal mine, most of those men were on £30 to £40k. I reckon the majority of those will be lucky to get anywhere near that when they look for new work. Similar trend in industry after industry (Redcar Steel etc).

Look at the age of a lot, maybe the great majority of trials riders, 40 and 50 years old. Mortgage minimal or paid off, kids left home or earning and a reasonable bit of disposable income. Now look at the 16 to 25 year old group where new trials riders should be coming from, struggling to find a job, often poorly paid or having costly long commutes or student debt to pay off.

Increasing entry fees no mater how justifiable could do a lot of long term damage to the sport - it will price itself out of the market.

 

By clouding the issue and talking about miners or this and that is simply avoiding admitting youre not accurate or objective. (student loans are only re paid when they earn over 21k and thats only 37 a month at 26k so thats innacurate and probably not stopping anyone entering a trial)

IT IS great value and considering all the unpaid hours volunteers put in as Breagh says above almost insulting to suggest in anyway as anything other. We all know times have changed and to repeat whats stated above health and saftey insurance land etc are all greater costs relative.

 

Lastly and to finish, if there is one iota of truth in anything you say about this, if trials is pricing itself out of "the market" what similar activity is cheaper?

[jimmyl]

When I first started (1970s and 80s) entering competitive motorsports entry fees were as follows.

 

Trials about 1/2 to 3/4 of a typical houly rate

MX about 1 to 1&1/4 of a typical hourly rate

Karting 1 to 1&1/4 of a typical hourly rate

Autograss 3/4 to 1 typical hourly rate

 

Now

Trials 1 to 2 times typical hourly rate

MX (£40) 3 times typical houly rate

Karting (£45) more than 3 times typical houly rate

Autograss (£6 to £7) 1/2 typically hourly rate

 

I know a major reason why Karting fees have increased is increased safety costs and investment in facilities. These do not apply to off road bike sports so why the excessive increases in entry fees.?

 

Clubs are not making huge profits, most probably breaking even, people are do things voluntary so as I see it we are where we are.

 

That's just what it costs unless you think somebody is getting rich on the back of trials entry fees (if there is I've not seen them) or you think the sport is being run incompetently but its mostly by volunteers so hard to be too critical to those that give their time for free.

 

Looking back into the past has no bearing on todays cost - Tel Esso that a gallon of fuel only used to a % of you hourly rate and see if they give you some discount.  

 

Seems just a post to wind people up which has been most effective