Ethanol And Other Additives In Fuel

[still trying]

Hi guys, thought I'd add to the confusion.

Here in NZ we went through a whole lot of drama when they phased out leaded petrol in the '90s.

The petrol companies started using tolulene and other not so nice stuff to get the octane rating right.

This resulted in a lot of fuel systems (generally older ones) having major issues, dissolving seals, hoses, fires etc.

Now we are going through the same with ethanol. The guts of it is that we, like you now have to use the appropriate materials to suit the new fuel, (and tune our engines).

Octane Vs compression ratio is all important. More power can be got out of a piston engine using ethanol, but the consumption goes up. If this was not the case then Top fuel dragsters, motorcross and cart racing people wouldn't tune there machines to run on the stuff.

So we need to change how we deal with our fuel;

Use airtight containers

Use fresh fuel (buy it on the way and mix it at the event maybe)

At the "end of the day maintenance" might include running the carb dry, and draining the tank if not using for a period.

I don't do this and use a 98 octane 10% ethanol fuel in my car and bikes (KT 250, '96 gas gas JT35 contact) and have no problems. My bikes tend to sit for many weeks at a time. I do buy fresh on the way to rides however.

I feel for anyone with a fiberglass tank. Made to cope with lead and not ethanol. I cant say I was convinced that a fiberglass tank and riding around rocks seems like a good combination.

A bit of history;

In the early 1900's the motor industry was looking for a way to get rid of preignition (detonation). GM had a chemist looking at it and he found two solutions, ethanol and a lead compound. GM owned a paint company that made the lead compound to put in paint, so they sold this as the solution to the world. And made a packet. Also poisoned quite a few people.

 

 

[jon v8]

Apart from such stuff probably being hard to find in the UK, its use is not permitted under ACU rules which, if I recall correctly, only allow the use of standard pump petrol.

Then maybe the ACU could do something useful for a change and recognise the problems we are facing.

[dpyam]

Crikey - this chemistry lark is a bit complicated.

Aspen also sell a pre-mix fuel so i guess they use a 2T oil compatible with their fuel.

In my ignorance i've used supermarket 2T oil with Aspen fuel - seem to have got away with it!!

It's difficult to know what's best with old engines, but i try to stick with non-synthetic oils for engines over 30 years old - just my choice - no scientific tests done by me to back up this plan and I'd use 4* fuel if i could get it.

Edited March 2, 2016 by dpyam

[rabie]

while you've never seen anyone be fuel tested - the mx guys started to use "race fuels" like the guys do in American mx (VP race fuels, etc), which led to fuel testing at MX GPs. obviously if you wanted to be a real awkward git you would put in a fuel protest (very expensive) and it would be upheld if that is what guys where using.

 

the real question would be how do phrase a rule to allow 2T additives for these kinds of bikes, but without enhancing performance ???

[2stroke4stroke]

Personally I don't care if anyone uses "unapproved fuel" in a trials bike, provided it is not producing hazardous emissions, as we all know that, in trials, the fanciest of fuel does not a winner make.

 

But, as suggested above, it is perhaps time that the rules reflected reality.

[dadof2]

Dad of 2 gasoline aka petrol was not invented in the UK. It is a byproduct of crude oil and was discovered by the distillation process and that process has been in place for centuries all over the world. One can't claim credit for the invention of a naturally occurring compound.

Ethanol is a solvent and yes it will "attack" components commonly found in engines if those components are not protected as any solvent should. Sulfides and chlorides also in fuel will attack metal and rubber much more agressivly if contents are left in critical quantities. Its not just ethenol that's bad here. Actually ethanol is great allowing water that will inevitably end up in your fuel and sending it out the tail pipe with out issue. With out ethanol you would have water droplets either cause miss fires or freezing up in the system. You have rain in the UK (no you didn't invent that either) and that rain will end up in you fuel holding tanks and your vehicles.

Have you ever seen adverts that fuel will help keep your engine clean? Well that can't be done with out some tricky chemistry and that chemistry doesn't always know what is friend of foe. Ethanol isn't the enemy here its etenol along with the incredibly complex mixture of chemicals that the fuel companies add to the base by product. You just have to know how to protect your fuel system or get comfortable replacing some things every once in a while. No fuel is perfect which is why there is so much attention around the energy topic in this world.

Furthermore you wouldnt want your two stroke oil to combine with your fuel regardless of ethenol. The oil is there to lubricate the fuel is there to burn. You wouldn't want those two to combine or trade places. You want them to be delivered side by side to the engine so they can do their jobs. All things in fuel have a job to do. I know a few things about fuels because of my background too.

--Biff

 

Bit of a strange post that - Did I (or anyone else) claim petrol or gasoline was invented in the UK? I and I assume quite a lot of other TC readers know full well most petrol is derived from crude oil (petroleum) by distillation. That was not the issue. The issue is that in the UK and several other countries problems are occurring with engines / fuel systems and the evidence is pretty compelling that these problems are related to the addition of ethanol to petrol.

In general these problems occur in older vehicles. The most recent vehicle in which I have seen severe damage is a 1998 BMW 3 series - seals on the fuel pump housing. However on much more recent vehicles there is corrosion on metal components that did not occur with petrol solely derived from mineral oil.

Shell petrol in the UK contains about 3% ethanol and powerful cleaning additives. Together these can cause "gasket" shrinkage and removal of gum that leads to air leaks on fuel injector and inlet manifolds.

To the owner of the 1995 Gasgas who said he had no problems - I suggest you check your plastic tank for swelling and dismantle the breather system inside the fuel filler cap - post what you find.

See http://web.ornl.gov/sci/ees/itp/documents/ORNL%20Ethanol%20Pipeline%20Corrosion%20Literature%20Study%20Final%20Report.pdfand there are plenty of other such articles.

My advice remains same as previously posted - try to use only ethanol free fuel and write to your MP to have fuel composition accurately labelled at the pumps and and ensure that ethanol free fuel continues to be available.

Ethanol free petrol is still a lot healthier than diesel.

[s.e.lucas]

Bit of a strange post that - Did I (or anyone else) claim petrol or gasoline was invented in the UK?.

 

 

 

Although ethanol could be put in petrol since petrol was invented in the UK

 

 

[dadof2]

Thank you S E Lucas.

 

I have now checked back and I did write "Although ethanol could be put in petrol since petrol was invented in the UK". 

 

I missed a full stop that should have been after the word invented. I also should have started the new sentence with a capital I on in so that it should have read as follows

 

Although ethanol could be put it petrol since it was invented. In the UK the addition of Ethanol pretty well ceased a few years after the end of WW2.

 

I guess I mistyped something slightly amiss and the auto correct changed it in a way that completely changed the meaning.

 

It seems petrol (in name at least) was invented in the UK "Variant spellings of "gasoline" have been used to refer to raw petroleum since the 16th century.^[41] "Petrol" was first used as the name of a refined petroleum product around 1870 by British wholesaler Carless, Capel & Leonard, who marketed it as a solvent"

[biffsgasgas]

Thank you S E Lucas.

 

I have now checked back and I did write "Although ethanol could be put in petrol since petrol was invented in the UK". 

 

I missed a full stop that should have been after the word invented. I also should have started the new sentence with a capital I on in so that it should have read as follows

 

Although ethanol could be put it petrol since it was invented. In the UK the addition of Ethanol pretty well ceased a few years after the end of WW2.

 

I guess I mistyped something slightly amiss and the auto correct changed it in a way that completely changed the meaning.

 

It seems petrol (in name at least) was invented in the UK "Variant spellings of "gasoline" have been used to refer to raw petroleum since the 16th century.^[41] "Petrol" was first used as the name of a refined petroleum product around 1870 by British wholesaler Carless, Capel and Leonard, who marketed it as a solvent"

So back to ethanol based fuels. Can we agree that there is more in Petrol or Gasoline that is both beneficial for environments and aggressive towards parts?

 

--Biff

Edited March 6, 2016 by biffsgasgas

[dpyam]

Aggressive towards various parts - yes.

Better for the environment? It doesn't manage that unfortunately, say the Brazilians etc whose rain forests are being chopped down so that the big companies can grow "bio-fuel" crops.

The EU didn't see that coming.

That's my 2 p's worth.

Edited March 7, 2016 by dpyam

[cascao]

We have ethanol since 80's

With ethanol the engine have more power but less torque. Less heat and not so easy to start engines at cold temperatures

Ethanol make our fuel more expensive. And we have less km per litres

Our ethanol come from sugar cane. It's diffrent from that used on other parts of the world. Less toxic and agressive to people and parts.

It is mixed 25 to 28% in gasoline. But our cars can have this gasoline or 100% alcohool. You choose based on price or conenience.

It mix 2t oils ok.

Good point is that was a bit traumatic at 80s but now, it is a thing that we does't think about.

[dadof2]

So back to ethanol based fuels. Can we agree that there is more in Petrol or Gasoline that is both beneficial for environments and aggressive towards parts?

 

--Biff

 

There are other additives in petrol that are less harmful to the environment or health than those used previously. Petrol has definitely changed significantly since the oily mineral based stuff of the 1980s.

 

However the above was not the topic, the topic is the potential of ethanol to cause harm to vehicle components, especially as its % increases.

[twinnshock]

I run a classic car and also a home built light aircraft so have been watching this ethanol issue for quite a while and reading as much as I can on this subject.  Both my car and plane have had all rubber seals and fuel pipes changed so that they can deal with the ethanol. Officially I can run the plane on unleaded pump fuel without ethanol but..................

 

Unless I have missed this in this thread what has not been discussed is the change of specific gravity of the fuel with the addition of ethanol that can affect float height in the carb. Not an issue for your modern fuel injected car. My old BSA car was quite affected by this change when moving from leaded to non leaded and now with the addition of ethanol the setting required is moving back towards the old leaded value.

 

Worth checking float heights?

 

Stuart

[crazybond700]

Could be if your story is right, but than it would run bad.