Pre65 Legal?

[gbmoto]

Hi All

I need some help, I want to compete in pre 65 probably with a Cub or C15. Is there a set of rules as to what can and cannot be modified, for example to be eligable for the Scottish and the Talmag.

I won't be getting an Otter or anything like that but I do like modding my bikes. Seeing bike's like Mick Grants of which very little seems to originate from before 1965 lets me think any thing goes, then I hear about no electronic ignition, no concentric carbs, no oil in the frame etc etc.

I am confused!!!!

P.S I'm not critisising bikes like Micks, I think they are wonderful and would build one tommorow if I had the ability.

[woody]

Basically, the more of a 'name' you are, the more you can get away with - hence Mick and Thorpey can ride their cubs, Peter Guant can ride his Enfield etc. If you or I turned up on them we'd be docked marks or told we can't ride them. I've been told that a completely standard Sprite isn't elligible as they weren't pre65 (even though I have a dating certificate of 1964) yet they can ride their fully modernised bikes..... getting the picture that there are no rules that you can base any mods on

Like John says - pre65 elligibilty is at best a complete can of worms, at it worst ludicrously hypocritical. There are rules but depends on who you are as to how or whether they are enforced. Things have just progressed too far to reverse it now.

We're trying to stop the same thing happening in twinshocks as mono Yams with twinshocks fitted are starting to appear as are disc brakes. Hopefully both will be outlawed in next years ACU Classic series before things get totally out of hand - I may as well put twinshocks on my 4RT and enter it as a TLR250...

[spud]

Basically, the more of a 'name' you are, the more you can get away with - hence Mick and Thorpey can ride their cubs, Peter Guant can ride his Enfield etc. If you or I turned up on them we'd be docked marks or told we can't ride them. I've been told that a completely standard Sprite isn't elligible as they weren't pre65 (even though I have a dating certificate of 1964) yet they can ride their fully modernised bikes..... getting the picture that there are no rules that you can base any mods on

Like John says - pre65 elligibilty is at best a complete can of worms, at it worst ludicrously hypocritical. There are rules but depends on who you are as to how or whether they are enforced. Things have just progressed too far to reverse it now.

We're trying to stop the same thing happening in twinshocks as mono Yams with twinshocks fitted are starting to appear as are disc brakes. Hopefully both will be outlawed in next years ACU Classic series before things get totally out of hand - I may as well put twinshocks on my 4RT and enter it as a TLR250...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Blimming eek!! Total madness, the trophy hunters are in the Pre65 class, i find this so hard to believe men of their ages. I'm not doubting you Woody its just....madness. This can't be right! I was toying with the idea of buying a twin-shock, now i'll hang onto my Gas Gas Raga Rep for a few years and fit twin suspension.

Edited October 23, 2005 by spud

[gbmoto]

Thanks Guys, I guess if it looks standardish it should be OK.

Twinshocks are a bit more clear cut in the ACU rulebook, they must have been manufactured with twin shocks, so the converted Fantics and Yams should not be allowed, also check out this Honda, should also not be eligable.

[woody]

That Honda has been sold abroad so it won't be appearing in any trials here now. The bit about being manufactured with twinshocks as standard was omitted due to an error from this years regs - although everyone who competes in that series knows that it is a rule - so technically, this year you could get away with a cheat of that nature. It will be back in next years, as will the ban on disc brakes, and hopefully this will be well publicised so riders will be left in no doubt they can't use them - or not score championship points if they do (it's up to indivdual clubs what they do at club events or club championships, not really bothered about that, just the national championship)

I don't see a problem in altering frame geometry, suspension pick-up points, swingarm length as these were all mods done at the time by individuals, teams or factories or even fitting modern forks (the latter being no different to modern shocks in my opinion and I don't think they give any real advantage over a decent pair of period Marzzochis for example) but disc brakes shouldn't be allowed and fitting twin shocks to monos is just taking the proverbial.

[twinshockdude]

talking of ACU CLASSIC SERIES why are brand new scorpas allowed in the air cooled mono class ?

[gbmoto]

I agree with Woody, certain changes on twinshocks no problem, especially shocks etc, that is one of the reasons this era of bike is so much fun.

Back to pre 65 it seems that you can spend lots of money disguising modern forks in old externals but not spend a few quid down the breakers sticking the forks straight on. So brand new alloy Falcons are OK on the back but 15 year old Marzochi's on the front are not.

With carbs I sort of accept no Mikuni's but surely in that case even the Amal concentric is too new.

I just want to build a decent,reasonably competitive bike that won't get me hassle at events.

I didn't realise that would be so difficult!!!

[woody]

The reason the forks can be fiddle inside is that they (whoever they are) like them to be of period appearance but they can be modernised inside. This is ok for people who have pots of money and can afford to have a set of old forks modernised internally, or a set of Marzzochis, for example, altered by repositioning the leading axle directly underneath to make them look old style. Both of these mods will cost. So although I can see why they would like to keep the forks to period appearance, all it does is play into the hands of people who can do it themselves or who can afford to have it done. Many true enthusuasts are then unable to compete on a level field as they can't just fit a pair of Betor or Marzzochi forks. Similarly hubs, it is ok to have a brand new set of bubs machined from super lightweight material in the style of cub or bantam hubs, with a braking surface that will work (these cost an awful lot of money) but not ok for Joe Bloggs to pick up a set of old Grimeca or other style wheels from the breakers. It's a crazy situation with what were originally good intentions now losing their way and penalising anyone on a budget.

As regards Scorpa 125SF in the aircooled mono class, I don't think there is anything wrong with that as they meet the criteria and I don't think they have any advantage over bikes like 305 Fantic etc (one of my favourite looking trials bikes)

Good on you John for carrying on with the Matchless, it's nice seeing bikes like that still being ridden. I believe this is where 2 routes are ideal these days as it enables groups of mates to ride together on their varying types of classic machinery at the same trial as 2 routes should cater for differing riders abilities and machine capability. This is why the old Sebac series was such a success - 2 routes and a huge variety of machinery being ridden with 3 figure entries commonplace. Now it is the ACU Classic with a single route the number of twinshocks and pre65 in total is less than 30 with pre65s never making up more than 10 of those. Why is it the series that needs 2 routes the most is the only one to have one...?? (forgot about the Novogar but that is a different situation altogether) - sorry, I wandered a bit there as that last bit was getting off thread but it is something I have strong feelings about

Edited October 24, 2005 by Woody

[twinshockdude]

acu classic series- good points woody,bur consider this,the reason these trials are so tough is that the sections are set to take marks off the over 40 class who are on modern bikes.surely a classic event should not include modern bikes,including scorpas in the air cooled mono class !!!

[g4321]

disc brakes shouldn't be allowed and fitting twin shocks to monos is just taking the proverbial.

I hope banning disc brakes on a twinshock is going to be a solely English thing, I cant see too many people getting upset over that North of the border, particularly when its the average clubman rather than the superstars who are more likely to do it.

It will be cheaper to pick up a 2nd hand disc front end for one of my TLR's than to get a set of forks rechromed and then buy a new alloy rim to replace a corroded Honda rim.

I know what route I am likely to go down!

[woody]

acu classic series- good points woody,bur consider this,the reason these trials are so tough is that the sections are set to take marks off the over 40 class who are on modern bikes.surely a classic event should not include modern bikes,including scorpas in the air cooled mono class !!!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But the sections aren't that tough really. There is never anything dangerous, mostly the severity of sections is as was used when twinshocks were current in centre and national trials. They are just right I think for twinshocks and better riders on the trick pre65s. It is a National championship remember and should favour twinshocks as pre65 is well catered for on many fronts, twinshocks are always overlloked, so it ought to offer a good challenge. So you have got to be competent to get through them without struggling all day but they certainly aren't killers. If you look at the results of previous rounds twinshock riders have often beaten the aircooled and modern riders and even when they haven't there have only been a few in front of the leading twinshockers - and of course Thorpey on his cub who usually beats the lot. One or two rounds have been affected by weather which has made them harder than intended but nothing anyone can do about that and one other was slightly over the top, but no-one is going to travel a 3-400 mile round trip and more in some cases to ride club trial sections. That happened when it went single route in the mid 90s and within one season the series was dead. No-one wants to travel that distance and incur the associated expense to lose 3 marks and be outside the top ten. If your bike stalled in a section you'd end up in 15th place. Riders quickly drifted away.

I'm conscious that this is off topic and isn't helping GBMoto with his original question (but I don't think there is an answer to that which can help.... ) Perhaps a post specific to the ACU Classic is needed but I've tried it before and it had no response.

Gordon - ban on discs is ACU classic series so won't affect you being Scotland or any other trials outside of that series, as the rest is down to individual clubs. But think about it. As soon as disc brakes become common what happens to the sections. They evolve with the development of the bike and riding style of the rider. You will have riders who will be using the front brake to flick the back around to turn tighter and they can fiddle around turns tighter using clutch/brake technique, disregarding the no-stop rule and it will go unpenalised. So what will happen to the sections when traditional type don't take marks anymore because riding styles have changed? Sections get tighter - it's an endless loop - catch 22 if you like and we've been there before as bikes evolved into what they are now. It's why the pre65 and twinshock scene became so popular in the 90s, to get away from all that clutch brake hopping circus. That's why I'm glad there will be a ban on discs in the classic series - wet drums don't lend themselves to back wheel hopping endos in sections...

[g4321]

Gordon - ban on discs is ACU classic series so won't affect you being Scotland or any other trials outside of that series, as the rest is down to individual clubs. But think about it. As soon as disc brakes become common what happens to the sections. They evolve with the development of the bike and riding style of the rider. You will have riders who will be using the front brake to flick the back around to turn tighter and they can fiddle around turns tighter using clutch/brake technique, disregarding the no-stop rule and it will go unpenalised. So what will happen to the sections when traditional type don't take marks anymore because riding styles have changed? Sections get tighter - it's an endless loop - catch 22 if you like and we've been there before as bikes evolved into what they are now. It's why the pre65 and twinshock scene became so popular in the 90s, to get away from all that clutch brake hopping circus. That's why I'm glad there will be a ban on discs in the classic series - wet drums don't lend themselves to back wheel hopping endos in sections...

Perhaps the lack of brakes when the drums are wet is why some of the TS riders in Scotland want a disk front end - in Scotland there are no sections laid out fortwinshocks - they have to ride same trial sections as remainder of novice class. The only difference is Scottish Championship rounds where these are really aimed at P65 class.

[huntmaster]

So brand new alloy Falcons are OK on the back but 15 year old Marzochi's on the front are not.

With carbs I sort of accept no Mikuni's but surely in that case even the Amal concentric is too new.

I just want to build a decent,reasonably competitive bike that won't get me hassle at events.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Interesting thread. I recently went through this dilema while sourcing parts for my recent HT5 project. Even after a lot of research (and reading about Mick Grant's 205 lb HT!) it was not always clear. "Granted", the situation in North America isn't as sticky as the AHRMA rules are pretty clear... and most organizations are happy to see ANY pre-65 bike out.

However, when in doubt, consider not just the age but the origin of the parts!

I.E., Mikuni carb = bad... but similar Amal Mk II ? - maybe!

Lightweight hubs = bad....but Rickman hub's? - maybe!

Electronic ignitions = bad....but Lucas?...still bad!

Regards, Doug

[gbmoto]

Nope, I'm none the wiser, I also am not good enough to justify a cheater bike and I also couldn't justify the expense ( check out tmx classifieds this week!!

Edited October 29, 2005 by GBmoto

[gbmoto]

Thank's John, I have heard it's difficult to get an entry, won't be ready and sorted for next year anyway, but I now have a spec to aim for.