The Ongoing Canada Trials Debate (Split From Originall)

[michael_t]

Hi Rabie,

I believe your ACU is similar to our CMA as it is the only FIM affiliated organization in the country and covers a wide variety of motorcycle sports. The CMA requires riders to pay $80 to join plus the entry fees to each of their events. The closest event they put on is about 2,000km away. We also have a National group that does not have FIM affiliation but provides the same insurance coverage and its own rule book but it is all free thanks to its sponsors. Some feel putting on events for free is undermining the sport and all things FIM but we have been actually very good at collecting money to support our FIM TdN team directly instead of paying it to the CMA (which is a for profit organization). We are really too small locally to have anybody get too fussed over so we just do our own thing.

It sounds like there is a big announcement coming about the CMA Trials council is working with the States for some cross border events which is very exciting news but I am guessing they will not be too much closer than the current offering for us on the East coast. I have also heard that the CMA is having some struggles so who knows what the future might hold.

As noted earlier I don't think that paying entry fees turns people that are really interested away and I don't think even paying the riders would increase the numbers by all that much... for me it is more about providing the type of fun atmosphere that people want to be a part.

[steve fracy]

Some of your information that you have described is not accurate. It costs $75 annually to have a full competition license and belong to the CMA. You can also join and support your given sport by purchasing an enthusiast membership for $30. The CMA does NOT dictate or collect entry fees for trials anyway. Any club that puts an event on using a CMA sanction, charges what they want as any club does. I find it interesting to read anything about "another National organization". We have one of the "officials" of this so called other National organization out West here. A decision was made by two clubs whom he had approached to use their existing events as part of his so called series. He is a private promoter and is not active in a trials club in his local area. The clubs asked him to produce an insurance policy in order to cover their behinds and in one instance was required to see it to review. He views this as the clubs wanting their already existing event, to be "sanctioned" by them.  This so called "free" insurance is not even in the name of the so called National organization. WEC, which is an organization base in Ontario (World Enduro Canada) provided the insurance certificate. This is funded and paid for by the Enduro riders who compete in their events. WTC, is not an actual organization. It is a website, and is controlled by two individuals. This offer of "free" insurance was offered as a gimmick to try and sway support away from the CMA and, it was told by the WEC that they would soon be the FIM affiliate for Canada. I am not sure where you get your information from, but I can guess, as ALL of the information I was given about the CMA, from the WEC was absolutely incorrect. I find it very detrimental to the sport in Canada to engage in any of this irresponsible behaviour. Perhaps if you actually got your information from the correct source, your opinion would be different.

 

FYI, I can tell you that the actual existence of another "National organization for trials" outside of who is feeding you with info, is viewed as laughable. We are trying to bring everyone together to work on changing the entire culture of how we do things with the sport in Canada. I am sorry for you that you have such a clouded and jaded view.

 

PS. as far as trials go with the CMA, they are not hurting or in trouble. There has never been so many positive things happening in many decades. if you take the time to understand the scope of what is happening, you will understand. Your opinion, and the facts are very different

Edited April 2, 2016 by steve fracy

[michael_t]

Sorry Steve,

I got the $80 from the CMA website http://canmocycle.ca/images/web/2016comp.pdf

It seems they upped the fee for 2016 without letting you know.

It is interesting to note that to join ACU it is just 10 pounds... $20 and typically things are about twice as expensive in the UK (based on my trip 2 weeks ago).

I am not aware of any CMA events that do not charge an entrance fee. I do know that on the hare scrambles side of things we would have to pay additional insurance fees to the CMA when putting on events. Does the CMA not charge clubs for having a sanctioned trials event if so I am glad to hear that.

I guess you could call me a "private promoter" as well as the club I run really isn't a club it is just a bunch of guys putting on trials events and riding in them. As they say in the UK "it's just a giggle" If that is laughable to you... laugh at us all you like but I don't see how that encourages growth in our sport.

I am truly encouraged that the CMA Trials group led by yourself is making more progress than you ever have in the past and really am not trying to diminish that. I'm just saying that it is not currently having any affect on our local riders (besides knowing there are people out there who don't agree with what we are doing)

Edited April 2, 2016 by michael_t

[steve fracy]

Nobody out there dis- agrees with what YOU are doing. Starting a club, riding trials, promoting the sport. Whats wrong with that? I take offense with this whole us vs them mentality. Who is the WE you are referring to??? What I referred to as laughable, was one or two people, who believe they are a National body ( self appointed as brought up by you). There is no one else in the sporting family of Trials, outside of this group, who would recognize it in any form. In fact they don't know it exists. There is far more to the sport in Canada and a lot at stake than perhaps you are aware of, so I would appreciate you attempting to tell me that anything I do doesn't encourage growth in the sport.

[steve fracy]

Clubs who put on CMA events charge entry fees like all clubs. So I am not sure what you are talking about.Who is the WE you refer to that I dis-agree with? I was referring to two people who call themselves a National sanctioning body. There isn't anyone in the world wide sporting family that recognizes them or even knows who they are, that is laughable. Harmful in my opinion to a small sport in a huge country. There is a lot more at stake here in Canada than you may be aware of. Its also interesting any comment you make to me, that anything I do doesn't encourage growth in the sport.

[suzuki250]

Once you've paid your council tax (over 2.5k for me) it reduces "available" funds !!

Don’t worry too much, its peanuts now with the new living wage  

[michael_t]

Still unsure if clubs need to pay anything to the CMA be part of CMA or to put on CMA events.

I will say that if as Steve refers to the WTC is 2 guys and a website... then by looking at the 2015 event calendars with large number of events running right across the country from NS to BC including a national championship. I would say that if I was the head of the CMA I would be working hard to include them and not continue to down play their accomplishments and insult them... just sayin. but this has been hashed out heavily under the Canada trials section of this forum.

Back on topic I do think it makes a good point that regardless of the entry fee people like to understand where the money is going and what it is covering more so than the actual amount. This has much less to do with inflation.

[steve fracy]

"National Championship" is a farce. It is also viewed so by anyone outside of Canada. You seem to not have a real idea of what it actually is and claims to be. I wont be wasting any energy on that, these are facts. I am unsure why you want to continue with the us versus them attitude. All of these co called events out here already exist and run by established clubs, except the one that Mr. Rhodes puts on ( and doesn't do the work anymore, others do it) and have taken place for years without any tagging of WTC to it. We have a National championship.

 

It seems pointless to keep giving you information when you aren't understanding the entire scope of the sport here. Glad to hear you have riders getting free bikes though. Well done to you.

[heffergm]

All I know is that every time I come across a thread that mentions Canadian trials organizations, I want to stop reading. And it makes me less interested in anything going on in Canada than I already was. Which being half American admittedly wasn't very.

[michael_t]

Who said riders are getting free bikes??? If we landed a trucking company as a sponsor would you assume I was getting the riders free trucks? Having sponsors is a great way to grow the sport instead of having the riders always covering the costs. This can lessen or eliminate entry fees which was what this topic was about.

Let me be clear I have always said and continue to say the 2 groups should work together to grow the sport... I have no idea why this is seen as an us against them. Steve is the one that seems to think the WTC should just go away or am I really missing something?

Stating that anything is a "farce" and then stating that is a fact is kind of silly don't you think? sounds a lot more like an opinion to me.

Exactly what "information" has been given? seems to me when questions are asked statement like that are just to avoid answering the questions... Does the CMA charge clubs for putting on CMA sanctioned events? I honestly do not know the answer as I have never put on a CMA trials event. I fully understand if they are run differently than CMA hare scrambles which I have been involved in. Since this thread is about entry fees I feel it is a reasonable question.

Edited April 6, 2016 by michael_t

[michael_t]

I realize others have suggested this in the past but it really is a good read about how NATC worked with many different organization to bring forward a united trials group... http://www.mototrials.com/about/history-of-natc

But to get back on topic if I decide to agree that joining the CMA is the only way to move this ahead. Would all our local riders need to pay $80 to join the CMA before we could hold CMA sanctioned events? Would there be any additional cost to the club to put on CMA events that would need to be folded into the entry fees?

We only have about 25 riders and only 15 show up for events today so 15X$80 would be $1200 which isn't much money... we usually send the CMA TdN team $600 anyways.

So as somebody sitting here with a cheque book can you please let me know what else it would take. This is not us against them this is just a fellow rider/organizer/promoter asking for an honest answer and a little respect from the head of the CMA TAC.

Edited April 6, 2016 by michael_t

[steve fracy]

Micheal:

 

I am curious about a few things that may help me explain how you have based some of your opinions. Have you yet had the chance to ride a trial other than the ones you have put on in the Maritimes? Have you had the chance to ride  Canadian National. Have you had the chance to ride any US Nationals? What other proviinces other than NS have you ridden in? All questions about the CMA and fees can be answered on the CMA website, or by contacting the head office. As head of the TAC I am in charge of rebuilding the sport in Canada, along with all the other fine trials people with vast experience in Canada and abroad. I have been involved riding and organizing trials in Canada and the US for over three decades. | am well aware of the history of the NATC. We work with them and the AMA. Also accredited organizations working under the FIM banner.

[Andy]

I've split this off from the original "Entry Fees" topic as it's got nothing to do with entry fees and the state of Trials in Canada (again!) is not of relevance to the majority of our readers.

[michael_t]

Thanks Andy,

Hi Steve,

Yes I am still relatively new to the sport it has only been 6 years that I have been involved. I hope that helps you answer my question. If you like feel free to consider me totally new to the sport. If the answer to my question was on the CMA website I would not have asked. I had assumed that since you have been around much longer than I and have put on CMA events in the past you would know if there is a CMA fee involved but I am happy to give Marilynn a call it is now very apparent I should have simply called her in the first place.

It is a little weird that you see yourself as welcoming new people to the sport.

[steve fracy]

You seem to question my record and whether or not I welcome people to the sport. I will let my history in both US and Canada stand. Unfortunately it seems like you have been horribly mis-informed. Any attempt  make to help with that, you just plain don't believe it. I do not speak for the CMA and only an official of the CMA may do so to a club or individual. That would be very correct. I have emailed you, called you, offered to take you out riding while on Vancouver Island, and yet still you make statements like you have. I am not sure why, but again I would take a guess you have been given incorrect information from people who claim they know.