the artist formerly known as ish Posted November 2, 2005 Report Share Posted November 2, 2005 Reading some of the replies to the US national dates story on the front page. Firstly Craig, just posted next years dates he didn't arrange them, so a topic on this forum would be a better place to voice your opinions. Very few events, mostly east side of the country, no events in school vacation, events held on back to back weekends are some of the comments posted. To be fair to the NATC they can't organize a friendly series if no clubs volunteer to host events, also those that have volunteered like Arizona, can only do events at certain times of the year. I think the questions should be why are clubs no longer wanting to host events, I have done many and to tell the truth I just don't want to go through all the hassle it involves, marking a trial course is the fun part. I was in two minds as to put our club forward for an event this year, but having read the changes implemented at this years meeting am glad I didn't, those being more classes added to a series with already way too many classes in my opinion, and the changing of the section marking to that of the FIM where different classes have individual gates, way too confusing in my book. What would make more clubs volunteer to host events ? In my case I would like to see only one split marker used, [PRO] exp could ride the easiest 50% of the pro lines this would be stated on the start card, ES could ride 30% of the easiest pro lines, again stated on the start card, all support classes ride the base section without taking any splits. This gives four levels of difficulty in an event by using one split marker, I see the new system leading to problems for trials marshals and riders. This season I see the NATC loosing $$ on the series, even though the entry fee has been raised, this can only go on for so long until the NATC can no longer afford to function. One of the biggest problems I think is!! more attention is given to what idividual teams riders etc want from an event, than the people who are doing the work, all well and good but, without the volunteer the rider gets nothing. This is just my opinion of what I see happening, and see the same type of problems at all levels of the sport from club to world level, one of the biggest factors for this is getting people to do the job in the first place, as new changing of the guard occurs on the riding side of the sport, even though the volunteer can go many more years than a rider, in the end they also move on, and the supply of people taking their place , just isn't there anymore. post your opinions but keep in mind that the NATC can only work with what they are given, number of events when and where are down to individual clubs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron Posted November 3, 2005 Report Share Posted November 3, 2005 Honestly... as far as events go this was a difficult task to arrange.. The west coast .. First of all we (The Natc Council Members) asked about having more events in the west.. No one wanted to host events except California , They did not want a stand alone event.. Oregon or washington could have stepped up to help the west guys... TTc was locked on there date for National / WTC.. by the FIM.. as you stated Ishy , Arizona was locked to either April or October due to the heat... Oklahoma similar situation..I have now moved to Georgia and Vt guys wanted a year to regroup .. and honestly we (I) thought RI was going to do one this year and Vt would aternate with them.. The markers is actually going to make section design way way easier on the organizer..No more looping in sections so easier to designate a intended line... Class structure well ... I disagreed with the womans es because the es class exists.. But the Junior Class is worth while.. and deserves credit.. As far as clubs not making money ... Thats BS I have done FOUR Nationals in two years and with NO Advertising Expense ( internet only) I had 250 paying spectators year one and 600 the second year.. and with the new split 5$ more per rider.. Money is not the issue.. Remember The Natc Provides stopwatches, now Radios, bibs(minder and press), sporting steward, scoring steward, clocks, punches, ribbon, and arrows.. A aggressive club can sell t-shirts.. have nice awards made for 7-8$ each we gave 3-5 places for each class.. We made decent money, the land owner made enough to pay some State Property Taxes The Taxes on the property we used are about 15,000$/ year.. So we helped her and got BEST event both days.. With a staggering 3.51 score out of 4.. Clubs can make money with an very small investment and Our Club worked very hard to get areas cleared, but it was only 10 members working 6-8 weekends and I took 5 days to do ALL LOOP and section marking and design.. for a decent profit... It takes no more work than a local trial... just need the checkers and a decent parking area.. The rest is just satisfaction knowing you challenged the best and got best event rated by the RIDERS!!!! That was profit enough for MY TIME !!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the artist formerly known as ish Posted November 3, 2005 Author Report Share Posted November 3, 2005 As far as clubs not making money ... Thats BS <{POST_SNAPBACK}> No mention of clubs not making money Ron, in fact I think it's a good way of boosting the club kitty, my point was how few a rounds per year can the NATC stand before running in the red ? You say yourself after two years of nationals your club is taking a year off to regroup, in our club most of the old guys are past regrouping and have had enough, finding anyone to help run the event on the day is like pulling teeth, with no sign of any young blood coming along to take up the slack. I'm seeing a decline in interest in trials at all levels, and thought I would ask why clubs don't want to host nationals, only a few years ago clubs were getting turned down at the NATC meeting due to too many wanting to host events, whats changed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trialsurfer Posted November 3, 2005 Report Share Posted November 3, 2005 We intended to host one this year also, but for lack af cooperation and desire to hold one we couldn't do it this year. Also economics play a large part in the picture, not that the profit margin is the most important as Ron says. The ability to assure a good compliment of willing checkers is the most difficult and importand part of the event planning. We couldn't do that! As for the additional classes and markers the one class that many wanted was a 125cc specific class which didn't pass this year, but the HS/Junior was a good compromise. The marker change was a Big step in simplifying set up and line definition. Another big change is that Minders are not allowed in the section before their riders ride! Also to simplify the checkers task of keeping some control over their section (no random ramp building)! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trialsurfer Posted November 3, 2005 Report Share Posted November 3, 2005 Club size and checker help is always an issue, it might have to come down to other clubs helping each other as land use becomes the issue. Oklahoma is a tiny club and the Texas bunch are going to assist them! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
city trials Posted November 3, 2005 Report Share Posted November 3, 2005 As much of the talk regarding the cc size issue, I'm in a quandry why the NATC didn't follow the FIM rule for age and size. 125 cc from 16-18 yo. 250cc - 18-21 yo. Under sixteen should also be structured. 50cc up to 10 yo 80 cc so on. The companies make these models for a reason. As for classes, here is what I ( just me ) feel would be suitable: Pro Expert ES which includes high school and woman's. Support under 50 Support over 50 Why in the world would you remove a class with seven riders competing ( 30 yo) but leave classes 60, 65, 70 year old classes which have eight total riders? Could it be because most of the 60, 65 and 70 year old riders sit on the NATC board? Talk about politics and sandbagging a class win. Why not start a over 250lb class for the heavyweight riders or a class for riders who wear glasses? As for events, we at WOTA ( Noel and I ) debated on a event and spot. He believes only Duluth is suitable for a National. I think one could be pulled off at Platteville, a nice college town and killer terrain, just compact. Land owner is willing. Our problem also is the extra help. Our club has a pathetic 18 members, total. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alan bechard Posted November 3, 2005 Report Share Posted November 3, 2005 As much of the talk regarding the cc size issue, I'm in a quandry why the NATC didn't follow the FIM rule for age and size. 50cc up to 10 yo 80 cc so on. The companies make these models for a reason. Why not start a over 250lb class for the heavyweight riders or a class for riders who wear glasses? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Wow, I think there are several of us that would not like that 50cc rule if it was too come about. Then again, can you say, machine modification? However, I do believe that there needs to be the over 250lb class wearing glasses riding with a kid under 10 (subject to go to 11 next year) on an 80 class..... Yeah, that's the ticket, if we write it specific enough I am sure I can be class champ........... I do not know what the true answers are, but I think this discussion (with the exception of my tounge in cheek additions) are what will create a positive change in the sport. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve fracy Posted November 3, 2005 Report Share Posted November 3, 2005 Far be it for me to critisize anything the Natc does, especially as a Canuck most of us are just happy to have a proper National series to compete in! Personally I would have liked to see the 125cc class put in there. Just is a no brainer to me! I also agree with Craig for some sort of engine size structuring for rider's under the 125cc class. Ever wonder why the Europeans ride winding the hell out of the motor's? I remember watching Camozzi mess around on a 80cc at the Goldendale WTC. He's no lightweight(Al, you listening?) and he could ride that thing in more things than any Expert rider. Ron is right about a club coming together and agressively and efficiently puttting on a National. I live on an island, and put on a Canadian National in the late 80's for our club. We had between 1000-1500 spectators that day. No advertising budget, and before the internet! The whole club got involved and we did make money! Same scenario as Ron with all rider's getting t-shirts/hats/awards. Even all the observer's got T-shirts too. I know it is getting tougher to schedule these events every year.It is too bad that there are no events in the non-school year though! Tough for many to get the kids involved! cheers, Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bwolfe Posted November 3, 2005 Report Share Posted November 3, 2005 As for events, we at WOTA ( Noel and I ) debated on a event and spot. He believes only Duluth is suitable for a National. I think one could be pulled off at Platteville, a nice college town and killer terrain, just compact. Land owner is willing. Our problem also is the extra help. Our club has a pathetic 18 members, total. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Craig, please don't speak for the entire club. I think you meant to write 'some of us in WOTA'.... Actually we have more than 18 members and massive discussion is beginning on how we can build WOTA's ranks back up. I personally am putting a lot of energy into this for the '06 season. Now, that said.. You and Noel are correct. We could do a national in Duluth or platteville, but the club just doesn't have the strength right now. So we need to focus on rebuilding the club to healthy numbers of ACTIVE participants. Once that's done then yeah, let's do a national. -- Regards, Bentley Wolfe Senior Escalation Engineer, Flash Macromedia Vice President and Webmaster: http://www.widualsportriders.org/ http://www.madisonmotorcycleclub.org/ http://www.wisconsintrials.org/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
city trials Posted November 3, 2005 Report Share Posted November 3, 2005 Sorry to speak for the whole wonderful WOTA family on the "Hosting a National" issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick1 Posted November 3, 2005 Report Share Posted November 3, 2005 As a veteran of working on two nationals in the last two years here is my two cents. Ron is correct in saying with the right motivation, resources and people any club, even of the smallest in size, can pull off a National event and make money. That being said not every club has those ingredients. For motivation our club wanted money. We needed it to establish our clubs footing, gain landowner buy in for long term club use, and to make contributions to support younger trials riders in the local area and NETA. We had resources other clubs may not have. First, we had an experienced Pro rider (Ron) in the club. How many clubs have that? Ron's expertise in gaging what is or isn't a good Pro/Expert section was invaluable. With a club made up of 1 Expert/Advanced rider, 7 Novice/Senior guys and 2 beginners (and a couple of kids) you can understand why a club would need a person with Ron's background. Second, we had committed, hard working folks willing to spend 8 weekends of their spring/summer working instead of riding. Many did it simply for the love of the sport. For our club having enough people for checking was critical. Without the dedication and backing of the folks in NETA (New England Trials Association) to help in checking there is no way in hell we could have pulled off a national. We had 36 people (experienced checkers, spouses, kids) sign up the first day to check and 33 on the second day. Some of those people we weren't sure on until the morning of the event. In addition we needed a Clerk of the course, people to man the gates, people to score and I'm sure I am missing a few. That is a total of 60 to 75 people to cover both days. As an organizer that is a scary thing, as a club that is an extremely good reason not to host a National. Not many clubs have those kind of resources to fall back on or count on. The Vermont club chose to take a break simply because we are burnt out. After puttting on two nationals in as many years, the 10 or so folks who did all the work are exhausted but most of all just want to spend next year riding and having fun. Keep in mind we are a bunch of old farts, the average age of our membership is 50, the youngest adult being 35. Fact is we were so toasted that even coming to the decision of putting on a local (NETA) event next season was met with considerable discussion and debate. We even postponed the vote for 3 months just to wash the National experience and decision bias out of our system. As I said, we just wanted to ride and have fun. But we feel indebted to pay back NETA for their support in helping us with our National. So to that end we agreed to host a 2-day local event, but again people are needed. A minimum of 16 checkers each day. Where will we get them, hopefully NETA will come through again. Will we put on another National? That is still up for vote. Our club is torn on that issue. We want to have fun, ride and grow our membership (which is hard in rural Vermont.) We also have a goal to purchase our own land, for that we need bucks and the National is the most attractive way to do that and there in lies our delma. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dman Posted November 3, 2005 Report Share Posted November 3, 2005 (edited) I don't understand these new classes. What was wrong with what was there? Most of this coming year's HS riders are going to be in or on the edge of junior class. And those of us who were in the top HS positions are going to ES. What is the point of HS doing ES lines? Go to ES to do ES lines! Why do we have to make more classes? And women's too, I'm all for having a women's class, but I don't see the need to split these things up. We have enough classes as is, and taking away sen 30 doesnt mean we can add 3-4 classes. Ridiculous... As for engine sizes and such, you're saying I have to sell my 05 to ride the nationals and buy a 125? No. The system is fine as it is. The reason the Europeans are better is because they nurture/train the crap out of/practice harder stuff then us. @the series: This is going to be fun... I have to get out of school and work for those april ones and Tennessee. Why couldn't the TTC do a 2 day national with the youth national? And make better use of the junior class? I remember when they did an adult national with a youth national and I thought it was great, but instead I have to miss work, school, and go down there twice. At least the western ones can be flown too. And NY is close... sigh... edit: Schools are much tougher nowadays on tardys and absences. I can see why some places need to do nationals earlier, but please, think of the future riders. @Vermont: Awesome event. A little on the easy side, but fun nonetheless. And the weather was sweet. CAn't wait for the next event, national or local. Edited November 3, 2005 by Dman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
city trials Posted November 3, 2005 Report Share Posted November 3, 2005 The reason the Europeans are better is because they nurture/train the crap out of/practice harder stuff then us. A defeatist. Glad Patrick Smage, Ron Commo III, Stevie Darrow, Will Ibsen, Cody Webb and a host of others doesn't offer that attitude. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve fracy Posted November 3, 2005 Report Share Posted November 3, 2005 As to the quote that CT comments on..... Yes the Euro's do all of that, on 125's until they are old enough to compete on a full size bike. When I watch the WTC and the 125 Class, they don't seem to be to hindered by it. Could outride me on my 280. Like in the karate-kid movie.........Wax on, Wax off! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trialsurfer Posted November 3, 2005 Report Share Posted November 3, 2005 (edited) "Why couldn't the TTC do a 2 day national with the youth national? And make better use of the junior class? I remember when they did an adult national with a youth national and I thought it was great, but instead I have to miss work, school, and go down there twice." One word----HOT!!! Edited November 3, 2005 by trialsurfer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.