michael_t Posted August 14, 2016 Report Share Posted August 14, 2016 What I don't get is the naming of WORLD Trials Canada when it has absolutely nothing to do with World Trials. Aside from the confusion with WTC being the recognised acronym for the World Trial Championship, I know there is a desire to bring the real World Championship back to Canada. How confusing is that going to be for people? You'd have a domestic series named World Trials and a real World Trials event in the same country. From what I can gather (from the internet) it would be best to ask Steve F. that question as it would seem he was part of the group that originally decided to setup the WTC... I agree they might have thought it through a bit better but it was before my time. It sure would be great if somebody had the minutes from some of those meetings so we could see what that group was thinking at the time... A name change couldn't hurt... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve fracy Posted August 14, 2016 Report Share Posted August 14, 2016 Honestly I don't know it can't be much because were Scottish,don't imagine the SACU are much either. I look on them both as providers of insurance,assistance and guidance for the Trials community. Riders do just turn up here join and ride but all trials are governed/ insured albeit in a different way by the two bodies. Nothing to stop anyone setting up there own club here and running trials getting insurance could be interesting. Aha then. Here is one point I am trying to make. You do pay a fee bottom line. The so called "WTC" has NO members. In some instances uses existing events run by clubs and calls them their own. Somehow thinking that their pitch of " no fees,no license etc" How can you call yourself a National sanctioning body when you have NO members? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve fracy Posted August 14, 2016 Report Share Posted August 14, 2016 Dan: I would be more than happy to provide you with all of the info regarding this matter as it is not as simple as you may think. From this post, I think you may be assuming that a fraction of trials riders have split from the CMA to form their own group. This is not really the case. This group was an attempt to try and get the FIM affiliation from the CMA. It failed. The remaining people cannot even be truthful to people that this is the truth. (Yes Micheal T there is emails to prove this) . This remaing group is seemingly oblivious to what is actually going on, and operates on its own merit. Do I think it benefits trials riders? Perhaps a small group who do not actually have a formal club. ( There is one group who was actually told that forming a club was a stupid idea) As I said, as someone viewing this from where you are, it must seem very cut and dry, But, the reason I continue to post and explain the truth is that an incredible amount of rhetoric is spewed about events, members, National Championships etc that is so harmful to a small sport in a large country. Despite what you read from anyone in a non-registered entity with no members, the majority of riders in Canada belong to strong trials clubs. Most of them now choose to affiliate with the CMA and all of us work together with the Trials Advisory Committee to try and make a difference. I made the positive choice back in 2013 because I care more about the sport and not about me, so the reality is your remarks are on point but directed to the wrong person. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve fracy Posted August 14, 2016 Report Share Posted August 14, 2016 From what I can gather (from the internet) it would be best to ask Steve F. that question as it would seem he was part of the group that originally decided to setup the WTC... I agree they might have thought it through a bit better but it was before my time. It sure would be great if somebody had the minutes from some of those meetings so we could see what that group was thinking at the time... A name change couldn't hurt... Perhaps someone who is the director of all things WTC should actually answer some of your questions......all other dialogue on other sites in Canada have been eliminated due to seemingly unwanted questions deemed as attacks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve fracy Posted August 14, 2016 Report Share Posted August 14, 2016 Not sure how down playing anybody who puts on a non CMA event in Canada is in some way making a positive change for the sport? I agree with Dan just let it go already. World Trials Canada is a great Canadian trials group that openly accepts all trials riders and puts on events from coast to coast. Without them there would be a lot less events in this country. Supporting organizers who put on events all across Canada would be a true positive change for the CMA. We are actually having an event tomorrow in the Province of New Brunswick which is starting to see a great group of new riders getting into the sport. Hopefully we will see some of them competing in the WTC championship East in the near future as the sport continues to grow here the East. Michael I would love to have an actual example how you think that without the WTC, alot of events would not be held? You have a club, almost all events in Canada are held by clubs. Since there is no membership,no fees or anything, tell me how you think WTC is promoting events accross Canada? There is absolutely no reason why any club in Canada needs "WTC" and it does nothing. For example. Here in BC there are two main clubs. One on Vancouver Island ( VMC) and on the mainland we have the CPTA. Neither of which need anyone to host many trials year round. There is a good group of trials guys in the interior of our province who do not have a club at all. They have expressed the idea of forming a club ( but have been told by someone within the "WTC" its stupid. I have been always open with you and explained the model we are working on to build a strong National Federation. The reality is, I am not saying ever that every club in Canada needs to join the CMA. Some clubs find great merit in it for the insurance. But, most clubs (trials) are affiliating now to contribute. We all need to to our part and a strong National Federation is only beneficial to the riders. There is no goal, there is no fees, no members, no nothing with the WTC, as it was formed by two people with the goal to try to get the FIM affilition for Canada. It is completly pointless and serves no purpose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael_t Posted August 14, 2016 Report Share Posted August 14, 2016 I agree with Steve this is not a simple matter. There is a lot of history that is really hard to sort out. I do base a lot of my information from what I have read on the internet over the years and much of it has been removed due to "technical issues" I believe they truly were technical issues but who knows. Even when the information was there a lot of it contradicted it self just like a lot of the more recent stuff does. Steve from your posts above is it true that you were part of the original group that started the WTC in 2009 (with the thought of taking the FIM status away from the CMA). Then in 2013, with the realization that the FIM would most likely not move you moved back to the CMA. It seems like a logical sequence of events and am getting that from reading between the lines of above but hate to make assumptions. Again just from purely using the internet it would seem that Total number of entries in CMA trials was 114 across BC, Saskatchewan and Ontario . Total number of entries in non-CMA trials was 588 across the country. Of those non-CMA trials, there were 207 entries in WTC-sanctioned trials. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve fracy Posted August 15, 2016 Report Share Posted August 15, 2016 (edited) What I am sure of is anyone who reads the Canada forum is sick and tired of what appears to be you and I going back and forth endlessly about the same things that have been discussed over and over and over. Your stats from the internet are false also. Just because one trial is a CMA event does not mean the rest are assumed to be WTC sanctioned. For example again, club trials from my club and the CPTA have been deemed "WTC sanctioned". They were not, the clubs gave permission for their existing club trials to be counted towards someones series, but then you read that there were "40 riders at another successful WTC event". Its kinda rediculous. Facts are though that people involved have slowly eliminated any source of outside feedback or comments that cannot be filtered to look favourable. Also making false or mis-leading statements with no recourse for anyone to comment about it. Welcome to the internet. Its 2016, time to move on. Edited August 15, 2016 by steve fracy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael_t Posted August 15, 2016 Report Share Posted August 15, 2016 This appears to be a great neutral forum based out of the UK with no prejudice so shouldn't be a problem to post some facts and get things straightened out once and for all. Given that anyone who signs up for the CMA pays their $80 and identifies themselves by discipline. Do you have access to the numbers for the past few years by Province? Going back and forth may be tiresome for some but if we could get some of this stuff figured out I think it would be a huge boost to Canadian Trials. I personally see a need for both organizations... more riders, more events, easier entry into the sport, more investment, more opportunities to advance, and most importantly more good times (if we can work together). That is what is in it for me. BTW I have requested a name change and it is being taken under consideration. - possibly one positive change coming from these discussions . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve fracy Posted August 15, 2016 Report Share Posted August 15, 2016 (edited) This appears to be a great neutral forum based out of the UK with no prejudice so shouldn't be a problem to post some facts and get things straightened out once and for all. Given that anyone who signs up for the CMA pays their $80 and identifies themselves by discipline. Do you have access to the numbers for the past few years by Province? Going back and forth may be tiresome for some but if we could get some of this stuff figured out I think it would be a huge boost to Canadian Trials. I personally see a need for both organizations... more riders, more events, easier entry into the sport, more investment, more opportunities to advance, and most importantly more good times (if we can work together). That is what is in it for me. BTW I have requested a name change and it is being taken under consideration. - possibly one positive change coming from these discussions . While i continue to applaud your enthusiasm and willingness to help grow the sport. Please understand that their are certain criteria in order to be classified as an "organization".. The WTC has none of them. A website, self appointed championships, and what is if for?? What is the end goal here. YOu have asked many questions of me and what our committee's goals and intent is and I have answered open and honestly. What is the point of the WTC? This topic was raised and started to be discussed on a Canadian website, then the forum deleted as some people realized there is no point what so ever to it. There are already more than enough events, easy entry to the sport ( that's what clubs are for) ample opportunities to advance ( The TAC is extremely motivated and a main goal). Everything is already in place as I see it. Strong clubs, who could all work together with the National Federation building a strong sport for all. Edited August 15, 2016 by steve fracy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael_t Posted August 16, 2016 Report Share Posted August 16, 2016 Please see response #4 here: http://www.trialscentral.com/forums/topic/57211-wtc-vs-cma-why-not-have-both/ If you read post #1 on that thread my reason for it was so this wouldn't keep happening every time we post an event... how quickly I forget (sucks to be getting old). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heffergm Posted August 16, 2016 Report Share Posted August 16, 2016 This is what happens when your riding season is only six months of the year... maybe you could at least put it off until the snow hits the grou.... Nevermind, too late. Carry on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve fracy Posted August 16, 2016 Report Share Posted August 16, 2016 still dont think you have answered any of my questions Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael_t Posted August 17, 2016 Report Share Posted August 17, 2016 I'll take another crack at it on the other thread as it is not specifically to do with just the WTC Championship. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dan williams Posted August 20, 2016 Report Share Posted August 20, 2016 Canadians are so cute when they're angry Let's face it, the only reason most trials clubs associate with any bigger organization is to get insurance. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
biffsgasgas Posted August 20, 2016 Report Share Posted August 20, 2016 (edited) Canadians are so cute when they're angry Let's face it, the only reason most trials clubs associate with any bigger organization is to get insurance.I know right?!?! Well i gotta tell ya... This past summer I took the bait and decided it was about time to go and taste the canadian bacon.... A not that long time rider, slash old timer, and i went and crashed an amature trials association event. It was part of my endless trials saga. We spent a significant amount of money getting there and signing up, but we met some great riders and enjoyed an awesome hippy trip. My co rider was in nam so we got a ton of stories and the vantastic did great. I will post a larger story in "general" but the moral here is that the 22 riders from canada were happy to have us. They dont care about this squabble. They will be happy when its over. I hope those that this stupid canada unison slash power struggle thing will end as do others. I dunno what it will take but i am guessing some people will need to open their minds to co ownership. Look out for the "endless trials summer" post... Just got off a bike.... --biff aka cma member now Edited August 20, 2016 by biffsgasgas 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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