Sammy Miller Series 2017 - Proposed Changes

[turbo]

Please could those interested in this series read the proposals outlined in the attachment below and provide feedback via this forum.  

Please note - I can give no explanation to any issues that may arise as I am posting this on behalf of others and the object of this exercise is to try and gather as much useful information as possible . 

 

Sammy Miller Series.pdf

[woody]

Martin  -  did you put any proposals forward in response top the questionnaire the ACU sent out?.  I took a fair bit of time to put suggestions forward but none are in there. I didn't get any response either.

 

I don't get the split between Spanish and non-Spanish, I voted no on that one and preferred a Pre and Post 1977 class split for twinshocks which is a lot fairer. They just seem to have copied the KIA format. Still no class for the Pre-units so they are still competing in the same class as trick lightweight Cubs, Bantams etc,

 

It appears also that I can no longer ride my Ossa as it has a reed valve which was fitted about 30 years ago - and something that Keith Horsman was fitting to Ossas, Montesas and Bultacos back in 1975... As used by Ossa UK from 1974 onwards

[turbo]

Hi Dave, yes I personally sent off my questionnaire for which I received no response either. I hope my comments have been noted . I did not get involved with the pre 65 side of things as it does not concern me and is best left for those that do . My feeling is that the proposals are obviously written in good faith but look complicated to me and the reasons for which this series has taken a nose dive of late are more than just eligibility issues .

[gasserguy]

What questionaire ?  

[johnnyboxer]

What about pre95 watercooled Mono's

We need a class for them now

[rusty ken]

Got to agree with Woody, I don't get the split between Japanese and Italian vs Spanish and British, except to make it easy to police.

 

Also agree about the lack of a pre unit class (is this not the type/spirit of bike that classic trials was invented for?)

 

There should probably be an explanation of "Britshock";  without some definition, if I wanted a more competitive bike can I take a pre '72 engine from any British bike (including two stroke?) and build it into a specialist frame that "looks" like something that was "suitable for the class", and where are the limits for this given that a "Btitshock" class didn't exist?

 

Seams you can do whatever modifications you want as long as externally it looks like something period. 

 

I worry the focus of the series is gradually moving to twinshock, (understandably) at the expense of more traditional machines, and that your are welcome to join in if your "Britshock" has been modified enough to get around sections set for twinshocks.

 

And on that happy note, I'm off to look on ebay for a Fantic, anyone interested in pre-Britshock Matchless?

 

[laird387]

Hi, rusty ken et al,

 

"Also agree about the lack of a pre unit class (is this not the type/spirit of bike that classic trials was invented for?)"

 

As the daft old duffer that organised the first ever pre-65 trial and then went on to create the British Bike Championship, which was transformed, eventually into the Sammy Miller series, which I then ran for the first thirteen years before I had to give it best when my wife was confirmed as having terminal cancer and the series was handed over to the A-CU, it may interest you to know that nobody has ever even bothered to ask for my opinion or thoughts on the matter.

 

The truth is that very first trial was actually called the Bigger Banger trial and it was specifically intended to recreate trials where average riders on old British pre-unit machines could still ride round the sections - because they could no longer be even pushed round the tight turns and steep climbs that the current crop, in the day, of Spanish two-strokes could clean all day in competent hands.

 

So to see the projected next series not even differentiating between pre-unit British bikes and, say, trick little Tiger Cubs just makes a parody of the whole idea - and makes me realise just how the sport has disappeared in favour of pure commercialisation and profit.

 

Sad, sad, sad.

[shakennstirred]

The Sammy Miller Series seems to be dying a slow death ?

my local Sammy Miller round was cancelled because there wasn't enough entry's

[neils on wheels]

I see the proposals as too complex, not to say Nationalistic!

I think there is a spiral with the reduction in 'big bikes' in classic trials. Fewer are ridden, so fewer classes are provided, so fewer are ridden, ...

 

What classes would I propose?

• Sidecar (dedicated route)
• Rigid (sidecar route or easy route option)
• British pre-unit (hard or easy route option)
• British unit (excluding CCM/Armstrong, British bikes died a death, is it necessary therefore to define a year, or just exclude CCM?) (hard or easy route option)
• Twinshock (hard or easy route option)

 

Many older bikes lend themselves better to road and trail riding that modern bikes, so I also see the 'good ride round' road based lap as a key component, even an attraction, for these trials.

[bezaboy]

No pre-unit class and even if there was sections that need the use of clutch and modern riding are killing 'Classic Trials'. Looks just like a copy of Kia series.

Not for me and my Ariel :-(

[shakennstirred]

They are losing sight of what the people that ride classic bike want.

I go to some classic trials and their letting in bikes from the 2010s up in, yes they are barred from any championship etc, but they are still able to ride around with

all the old bikes, I guess its because these people still pay the entry fee

Edited September 1, 2016 by shakennstirred

[jon v8]

I see the main basic problem as already stated is that Pre unit  bikes have to compete against Cubs/Bantams etc - Apart from Steve  on his Enfield and Merv on his HT, nobody else is bothering to enter - Why would they ? Not going down the route of cost,but why would anyone start out competing in this class ? And if you look at the bikes in that class,most of them are better than the twinshocks that were built much later.Thinking of Drayton Bantams etc here, they are lighter,have better suspension,brakes,clutch and probably power too.I have nothing against them,its just natural progression,whether its home built or a kit from a supplier like Drayton or Armac

I filled out the ACU questionnaire, made a separate note at the bottom,indicating that I was happy to discuss at length my feelings and thoughts about the Miller series.No reply.

The Kia Twinshock series has hit its nail square on the head,you only have to look at the entries,long may it continue. The Miller series needs to sort itself out properly,I only ride the rounds I can get to sensibly,family and work are in front.But for those who want to take part and win its a mess,what does it want to be ? If its a real "Classic" or "Pre65" Championship then the classes and equally the sections need to be right. For instance the rigid class which I ride in, needs to have sections which will take marks off rigids but not have large rock steps or stupidly tight turns. So this brings the Clubman route down to a level where the Bantams may breeze through with loads of cleans.The A route has to be tough to tax better riders on Twinshocks or Draytons etc. So this puts more pressure on the course setters and makes life hard for observers having multiple routes.Giving rigids the choice of the clubman or sidecar route only complicates things further in terms of points scoring.

There is no easy answer, but the ACU have not listened it seems,or made basic steps towards sorting it out.Maybe the series needs to fail, then those who want to start a series for a spread of older British bikes will come together,(As the Kia series did) probably away from the ACU to do something more inviting ? 

[john collins]

Guys

This all very interesting, but I am afraid is also all very premature, so I need to put record straight .

 

There was a survey carried out –   I believe it was sent out to those who are riding series

That is important.   If you are not riding  or involved  the series, it may interesting to express your opinions,   but that is what they are, opinions , to which of course you are entitled, but please do not expect them to have more validity than those taking part.

 

However, like lots of surveys there are varying views , and often they reflect what a particular person feels, which may be valid, but next person has totally different take on topic.

 

Even worse , there can be a tendency when a view does not come to fruition that those who genuinely  completed survey, feel  slighted or ignored .  This is problem with such  things

                                   “ Everyone wants  a certain set of rules as long as it is theirs”

Ok That is the history

Now.  Surveys have been read.    Some of the views you express  here  will also be read at least

 

 WHOEVER PUBLISHED THE PROPOSALS WAS INCORRECT

 

THEY HAVE NOT BEEN FINALISED.                                 THEY ARE WORK IN PROGRESS

 

I SUSPECT THERE MAY WELL BE SEVERAL CHANGES,  THE FINAL FORMAT WILL BE ANNOUNCED IN DUE COURSE.      

 

IT IS VERY EASY ON WEB SIGHTS   AND  Fu …..  BOOK   to say how things should or should not be done

 

I have a suggestion which is better than any survey if you are serious in your quest to help

ONE PERSON  -   and ONE  only  on this site ( preferably  someone who rides in SM series )  acts like a co-ordinator.    That person wants to be announced on  this TC  forum .    That person needs to volunteer and start ball rolling – all others respond to their post with suggestions

 

Put together all the various views expressed over next few days – say until Monday     ( good luck with that!)   and see if a conclusion about classes and routes and machines can be  formulated

Once that is done -   I  100%  promise you  that T & E  will give very very serious consideration to that ONE  proposal which has been drawn together from all your various  TC  views

 

Email it to me or just publish on a post ( I will check  for it on Monday)

 

So – Step 1  - A volunteer on TC to collate all the views.   By all means discuss/ debate/argue

         Step 2  -  By Monday a final draft of the views collated into I set of regulations posted

         Step 3 -   Those collated views to be put forward as ONE proposal from TC posters to be considered with equal  validity to all proposals so far

 

Over to you all

 

John Collins

T & E Chairman

 

 

 

 

[gasserguy]

Well Mr Collins, I've ridden every Sammy Miller round except one for the last 4 years and knew nothing about a survey!  Why did you not post it on your weekly ACU web update?   Would be nice if all the intrested riders could have seen this rather than a select few!   In fact the survey shold be aimed at the riders who are NOT riding as the ones that are tend to enjoy and support the series!

 

Please could someone post it on here so we could see what sort of questions had been asked!

 

Funny, same thing happened last year with the Normandale changes, We was told that any trials related changes / proposals would go onto a special heading on Trials Central!   I think it happened once!   

 

Edited September 2, 2016 by gasserguy

[collyolly]

I would have thought that this forum would have been a good place to get opinions and experience relating to the S.M. series but to suggest that this is all sorted out and a sensible report prepared by Monday ( no date, so one assumes from the way the offer reads its next Monday i.e. 5th Sept ) I am afraid appears a bit of a non starter.

I and 115 other classic enthusiasts are away this weekend at the S.W.C.T.A. Dartmoor 2 day trial ( I believe an A.C.U. event ! )

I did get the survey e-mailed to me and I did post a reply.