Sammy Miller Series 2017 - Proposed Changes

[laird387]

Hi TTSpud,

 

Thanks for your kind comments - do not abandon hope, there are good pre-65 events to be found, but you have to look for them - have a look at the BMCA events in the Midlands - or the Somerton Classic or the Yorkshire Classic events, then there is the Scarborough Two-day, any Red Rose Classic events....

 

Yes, there are plenty about, and all seem to have a refreshing 'prefer original bikes' way of working.

 

I shall continue to support them with comprehensive reports in our digital magazine.

 

But whatever else, ENJOY,

 

Deryk

[jon v8]

By Monday, hmm - thats not going to happen,as already said a large number will be riding in Devon over the weekend,they won't see any of this. Thinking about it I wonder if Colin Hedges got a copy of the questionnaire,Steve Allen only got one because I got a copy to him.Both Pre unit riders back from the start.

An internet forum is the place for Joe Public to express their opinions - they,including mine are just opinions. The ACU ought to be listening to the club organisers,those who care enough to run and organise events.They are the ones who know what their riders want and can give an accurate and fair view.

Air cooled mono's if allowed will take the problems even further for the course setters, if as I said the ACU are serious about the Miller rounds being a Pre65 or "Classic " series. Remember how the trials world changed forever when bikes like the Yam mono appeared ? I have nothing against them at all, but they need way tougher sections to test them compared to an HT5. Not all land can easily accommodate sections to be marked out to suit the range of severity this would need.

A basic change of class to separate Pre units from Cubs etc, would make such a difference and its just that - BASIC. Makes me wonder what the ACU really do,very little by the look of it.For the amount of work it now is to set up a road based trial I can't see many clubs bothering much longer,the ACU should be helping with this.If they want the Pre 65 element to stay away,why don't they just say they are not interested anymore and want to concentrate on the popular twinshock classes ? 

[john collins]

Guys

There seems to be more interest in analysis ,  surveys and the like and how it all went wrong in past, and ACU should  allow someone else to do it – fine –   get on with it.    if you are volunteering send me a name and address   and we will  involve you . 

 

What I have not seen is many positive suggestions about future ,  and many realistic  comments about how it all needs to work

 

Consultation to end of year ?     Sounds great put unrealistic .    Perhaps we need to consider how things actually work:   This  may be good as it should certainly be known regardless of which type of event

 

Clubs /Centres have to apply for rounds. It does not matter if they are SM or  Solo British Championship or anything else.

 

In order to do this, they need some idea of format etc.   Which is where we are at present – actually doing it.      Many clubs now no longer meet on a weekly basis, often perhaps a couple of time or even once a month

Clubs and Centres require a their calendars fixed  by about first week in Nov  (   Many meet on Remembrance  Sunday for final sort  but many  say that is too late)

 

It is not just about various  Championships for them, they obviously put these in first, but then have to fit in all normal Centre & Club events around them. This is important for land, observers and so on.  They want Centre Calendars to go to printers and so on and so forth. They want them compiled as early as possible

So  they want  it finalised start Nov if possible ( often it is not)

 

When applications for all the Championships are sent in , inevitably there are clashes  and the they have to be resolved. Clubs are re-contacted, but of course people are in work, have to consult with others in their club at next meeting and so on.   Once applications are in it will probably take about 4 weeks to get it all fixed – and that is being extremely optimistic.

 

It is easy to think that a SM round or anything else will not be affected by something which is completely different to it – i.e   Keedewell   British Championship , or even UK World round – but that is not correct. Often Club members   who actually do work, observe and ride in other events   some completely different types,  may not be available on a certain date so club  that need them cannot clash with events which at first glance can seem to be no problem.  This is often case in my own club.  It is easy to think these events just happen by magic – they do not.

 

All that is fact – accept it or not , but it is.  This means that first applications really need to be back from organisers by end of Sept. This means we are actually already on late side ,  as they are not sent out yet so consultation to end of year is not going to happen.   It is going to be days

 

Ah I hear you ask, why not start sooner ?   Many reasons but not least as at present we still await FIM World Trial dates, FIM Europe Trials dates and these in turn affect RT Keedweel Champ,  Ladies & Girls Champ,   &  Youth Champ.  Some ( who probably know very little about how events actually happen   may think  that is not important – as I have explained it is. 

 

The reason I offered you the chance to put forward view was that someone had prematurely put on  TC  a suggested format that was not confirmed, so rather than have huge debate about that I suggested those with some definite views on how it should be for 2017 put them down.  It does seem however many are more interested in talking the talk rather than  suggesting anything

 

That is fine, if you just want the excuse of not contributing just keep impressing people with your knowledge of past , and how you would have done it differently.

        I do not accept that anyone presently involved cannot do this – if they want to.

 

I too rode Sammy Miler round for many years, and at any given time I am sure I would have had an opinion of what classes  etc there should be. Who should be catered for ?  We have this discussion in our club almost every week

 

If you need time to think about it, or are put out as you did not do a survey or are more interested on analysis of past,   where it went wrong  then fine , leave it alone.

 

There are about 120 riders who have scored points in the various classes in 2016 , and we could just leave these alone, and I could be down pub.

 

However, as I said earlier those who wish to by Monday suggest the classes they would like to see , the opportunity is there.   Up to you if you wish to take it.  I have written this tonight,  you can do same and also Sunday and Monday

 

So, for those interested in positives rather than negatives.      Your starter for 10

 

1) There will be no Sammy Miller series  in 2017

 

2)  There will be an ACU Classic series  subject to organisers and dates being sorted within a week or two)

 

3)   There will be an opportunity  for some “ Off road applications”  -   max number of laps and min distance

 

4) The format  will be  hopefully be sent out to potential organisers  within days

  What type of carb, wheels, hubs, frames and so on are not at present the burning issues – these can come later and yes there can if you like be more consultation

 

At present what is needs is :

                            5)       What Classes   & How many routes  ?

 

Respond   on point 5 if you wish ,  that is starting point   but by Monday afternoon

 

John Collins

[laird387]

Hi, John Collins et al,

 

I can't volunteer, sadly, because I now have mobility problems which preclude me doing the job - but believe me, if I could, I would.

 

I really believe that the current Sammy Miller format has well and truly run its course and is now dead, dead, dead in the water.

 

Before worrying about the classes and the number of routes I truly believe the greater concern is whether the clubs applying for rounds are capable of running such an event.............

 

My suggestions are quite radical because, as usual, I don't follow the popular beliefs that you have to include twinshocks in order to make it a viable series!

 

I am not unique in that view because there exist clubs in the UK who regularly prove that by excluding the twinshocks they gain bigger entries.

 

Look at the Somerton Classic clubs British Bike Trial, compare the number of entries with their regular trials; look at the numbers participating in every Yorkshire Classic trial.

 

So the opportunity is there for someone to start a British Bike series - please believe me, if riders of British bikes knew there was going to be a trial with ALL the sections set to suit them and no compromise to give a twinshock a competitive ride, then they would flock to it.  Look at the Talmag trial, even the Pre-65 Scottish (if you must - but tighten up their eligibility rules).  There has to be a 'Specials' class where all machines are placed that have been created on the basis of what a machine could have been like in 1964 if only they had known about this technology

 

The success or otherwise of any series will always rely totally on grasping the nettle of separating the newly created machines from the original machines in the classes, so the classes need to be carefully defined - and the section plotters must have ridden a heavy old British bike before they are allowed to select their courses.  In the old days when clubs told me they didn't have any experienced riders of British bikes I made them choose their sections, then ride them on their current bikes with a pillion passenger aboard - that soon got rid of the ridiculously steep drops, etc.

 

Remember that I created the Pre-65 movement in order that those of us who loved riding in trials, but couldn't afford one of the new Spanish machines in those early years, could still have somewhere to ride - surely there is merit in creating a series of classic trials where no poor course plotter is set the task of organising several quite separate trials within the ambit of one set of entries, even if there is land accessible to them that would cater for the various needs.  When we started the pre-65 movement one of the immediate advantages was that land that had fallen out of use because there were no challenging hazards for the Bultacos and Montesas, etc., could be brought back into circulation.

 

So there's a start - what do you think?

[john collins]

Thank you for two positive posts.     I will take on board as will other T & E members

 

Things are never quite as simple, as from our point of view we have to have organisers and that is our first  remit i.e to invite applications.

 

I will not expand at moment as hopefully there will be other views, but none will be ignored

[laird387]

Hi trialsrfun,

 

"Where are bikes like my Greeves Anglian with factory fitted Ceriani forks placed in this series, time and again Greeves, Sprite, Cotton as well as Cheetah and many more are completely excluded because of the Pre 65 title. "

 

Your problem is one that was introduced when the A-CU took over the series and allowed organising clubs to set their own rules.  I am attaching a copy of the initial Sammy Miller series Regulations, which you will see, recognised your dilemma.

 

Cheers

Deryk Wylde

 

 

1. MACHINE ELIGIBILITY: To be eligible machines must have been manufactured in Britain, prior to the 31 December 1958 for vintage twostroke machines; prior to 31 December 1964 for all pre-unit classes; prior to 31 December 1969 for twostroke and unit construction classes. All major components to include frames, forks, hubs, engines, gearboxes, clutches and carburettors must be of British manufacturer and available before the date of eligibility for the class concerned, with the minor concession that Amal carburettors up to Mk 1 Concentric may be fitted. Motorcycles fitted with non-British components during manufacture, such as Ceriani forks on certain Greeves models and Grimeca hubs on some DOT models, will be accepted as British, but those components will not be accepted on machines of other manufacture. Any model of British manufacture but with component parts that are not date eligible, such as alloy slider BSA or Triumph forks (1972) on unit models, may ride in the Specials class. Replica frames are accepted in the class of machine that they replicate provided they are dimensionally accurate replicas, i.e. components from the original models will fit without modification. Trail machines may be of any manufacture but must have fully working lights. Allocation of the correct class will be verified, if required, by the Series Coordinator. The decision as to which class a hybrid machine is allotted shall be made such as to place the machine in the more competitive class, for example an Enfield Bullet motor mounted in Enfield Crusader cycle parts is deemed to be a unit model. The essence of the eligibility rules is to encourage fair competition.

 

If anyone would like a complete set of the regulations, just PM or email me.

DW

 

 

Edited September 4, 2016 by laird387

[collyolly]

Hi all, just got back from the S.W.C.T.A. 2 day in the West Country , what a fantastic couple of days sport, not even spoiled by the torrential rain on the first day (observers may not agree !)

For the first time we had 3 routes to give us a choice of severity, 2 complete routes then a third made up of a 50/50 mix of the two.

This means a limited amount of additional work for the organisers but gave me, a rider of a pre unit the chance to ride some harder sections together with the usual tricky runs through the streams.

From this my suggestion would be a simple one to keep the interest going -

1/ Gentle men's route for the main pre 65 class and the less experianced twin shock rider

2/ Star route for the expert pre 65 rider and expert twin shock

3/ 50 / 50 route for the pre 65 and twin shock rider wanting a challenge but not a broken bike ! ( although I must say the whole hard route looked very sensible this weekend but you never know how these are going to ride and it's a long way to travel for a struggle round if the trial is pitched specifically to take marks off the expert twin shocks as I feel the Sammy series has become )

We have been operating the multi route system in the south east centre for many years at group trial level and it is very successful

The problem with breaking down the classes into capacities is that you will turn up an event and find you are the only rider in the class !

A few years ago we had to bundle all of the pre 65 classes ( there were - pre unit, unit, 2 stroke and rigid ) with the twin shocks just to get a compeditive group in our area so let's not go down the route of multi class, just get the severity of the sections right and I will ride my pre unit against any other old bike.

[laird387]

The problem, as I see it,for the twostroke classes are the modern reincarnations of previously existing models - but with fascinating little modern tweaks!

 

Bearing in mind the eligibility cut-off date for the twostroke class was 31 December 1968, that would rule out, for example, any four-speed Bantam motor (The first factory experiments with the four-speed were in the early summer of 1972........)

 

My suggestion for this dilemma would be to create a separate class for them, entitled 'Britshock', into which all the Drayton, and similar, models could happily compete against each other.  In the class I would also include all the modern built James and Francis-Barnett lookalikes, with their interesting little reed valved interiors.  The object never was, and in my view never should be to exclude anyone - merely to get them to compete fairly against similarly equipped machines.

 

As to when twostrokes were first ridden in trials, it is not necessary to read my good friend Max King's book - simply remember that the very first observed trial for motorcycles anywhere in the world was created just over a hundred years ago and preparations are in full swing for this years event.  The event?   The Scott trial, organised to create a competition for the test riders of Scott twostroke, two cylinder, two-speed motorcycles.

Edited September 5, 2016 by laird387

[laird387]

Hi trialsrfun,

 

In this year's Talmag, there were nineteen entries in the 'less than 300cc' class, plus quite a few more in the 'gather all in' class described as 'Clubman rider on any fourstroke machine'.  

 

Also please remember the Talmag IS NOT and never was, a Pre-65 event.  It was created by my friend John Allaway and his colleagues as a 'European Fourstroke Trial'

[laird387]

Hi TTSpud,

 

 

"Wow, yes, very interesting stuff.  2-stroke, 2 cylinder, 2 speed... Let's hope pre65 can get a future 100 years!"

 

It is not unknown for a Scott to be ridden in recent Bonanza trials.................there's hope yet!

[john collins]

Hi guys

 

I think it can be seen the diversity of views re classes etc

 

This has really always been the problem. many views and while almost all are valid, it is easy to get into a mess

 

Just a few things that we as T & E have to consider

 

There is a huge difference in last few years with running events.  Not least the MSA Approval required if part of event goes on road , the S33 Local Authority approval even  for off road parts.

 

The bureaucracy  - and yes ACU are responsible for much of it ( good topic for another post !   as that is far from easy to digest)  

 

I have been Clerk of Course for a whole range of event ranging from the old Sebac series classic type events to British Championships and World Championships .    Across the range, therefore a club that puts on event - any events has a lot to do and a lot of responsibility to take. Far more than ever before

 

Therefore,  they require a good entry to make an event both viable and justify the work.   Most do not do it to make money but work on a break even situation across the season 

 

The problem has been that while some classes have diminished for all sorts of reasons, in order to maintain viability - and for T & E to get organisers who wish to run a Champ event, there has undoubtedly been an influx of more and more classes and sometimes Specials  ( and that word in itself can be used in many more classes than just that titled class?) 

 

If you ride one of these .eg Spanish Twinshock - one is happy

 

If you ride a more standard British Bike, it is very easy to feel the sections etc are  marked to suit them and the pleasure can go out f it all and hence participation of the older bikes

 

I am quite attracted to the idea of returning to a more British Bike series = but will it get entries and will organisers come forward?

 

I can only presume that the authors of many of these posts are hard working members of their own clubs like T & E members are.

 

Can we togeteht persuade our Clubs to apply for a round

 

It is chicken and egg situation.   If we revert  more to original concepts, entries may flood in,  but if they do not at least at initial stages organisers are might peed off and not surprisingly those from classes then excluded soon say - what did you expect when you took our classes away ?

 

A conundrum  ?     Which is why I initially asked for classes that people want

 

There are some good responses, but they do intend to be from a limited number of contributors

 

We will continue reading throughout the day and then try to collate the view with thos already sent in

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[turbo]

In all honesty having ridden the series since around 2007 I have always felt that the series was ,and should remain the domain of the older pre 65 bike ,and us twin shockers have really been there by invite and to make the numbers up therefore making the event viable . I have had no problem with this and have enjoyed many fine events held in lovely parts of Britain . I know its putting the clock back but I think the day has come for the series to revert back to its roots and become a British bike only event  , what bikes qualify for that I will leave to the experts . I have also noted that the main problem areas relate to the pre65 class and very little is actually mentioned about twinshock so maybe its best if we stay out of the way . I remain doubtful that many of the people who post on this forum still would not follow a revamped series !. Lets be clear , call a spade a spade , the Kia series has hit the spot with a lot of twin shockers , expertly coordinated by Gerry Minshall and team ,good venues , well organised etc etc I have only ridden a couple since their conception but the numbers speak for themselves . I have concentrated on the Sammy series this year ,last round cancelled at short notice ,the one before that poorly supported this year . I think my mind is made up now as to what series I will follow next year !. 

 

 

[jon v8]

OK, here is my proposal, its simple and easy for clubs to  administer and riders to enter the right class.

 

1 Pre70 Sidecar.

2 Rigid.

3 Pre unit springer.

4 Pre70 unit,(including Villiers engines for those who argue they are pre-unit) 2 or 4 stroke.

5 Twinshock.

 

Classes 1,2 and 3 ride the B or clubman route, classes 4 and 5 can choose either Expert or Clubman route. The club, at its own discretion  can exclude classes 1 or 2 from individual sections or use deviations for classes 1 or 2, or both if a particular section cannot be made appropriate.

I can't see any point in arguing over machine eligibility,people have spent their time and money - just want to ride,and even the best bike in the world won't make you a winner - you still have to ride the bloody thing. Plus there is often very little time before the trial to check bikes over when people have driven long distances. Lastly, its difficult enough to get help to run a club now, who is going to volunteer to take on a task of chucking out bikes and having rows with owners - its meant to be a fun pastime...

[old trials fanatic]

The problem, as I see it,for the twostroke classes are the modern reincarnations of previously existing models - but with fascinating little modern tweaks!

 

Bearing in mind the eligibility cut-off date for the twostroke class was 31 December 1968, that would rule out, for example, any four-speed Bantam motor (The first factory experiments with the four-speed were in the early summer of 1972........)

 

My suggestion for this dilemma would be to create a separate class for them, entitled 'Britshock', into which all the Drayton, and similar, models could happily compete against each other.  In the class I would also include all the modern built James and Francis-Barnett lookalikes, with their interesting little reed valved interiors.  The object never was, and in my view never should be to exclude anyone - merely to get them to compete fairly against similarly equipped machines.

 

As to when twostrokes were first ridden in trials, it is not necessary to read my good friend Max King's book - simply remember that the very first observed trial for motorcycles anywhere in the world was created just over a hundred years ago and preparations are in full swing for this years event.  The event?   The Scott trial, organised to create a competition for the test riders of Scott twostroke, two cylinder, two-speed motorcycles.

Deryk can you please tell me where i can get the reed valve modification done for my 32A i'm genuinely interested. Thanks.

[john collins]

Thanks for posts

 

All will be read and added in to previous surveys , comments,   etc  before classes are finalised

 

I do know form experience that there is one big problem with some of classes suggested, which in themselves sound ok and that is te policing of it

 

Someone said it is easy to tell if a bike is  such and such ?  I am not so sure. Certainly there are classic experts out there who know all this and can tell year/ modifications and so on.  Unfortunately these people will not be at event ( unless someone wishes to volunteer ?  serous question -  )  

 

Organisers rarely have the time or inclination, they have much to do on a morning  and machine examiner often is just that - checking normal things and not necessarily an expert into the exact dimensions of a frame etc.  Fork diameter is easier and i think we will certainly re-instate this

 

I have to say in past, whatever rules we made, ie Pre this or that or certain forks or carbs , many seem to have taken a great delight in circumnavigating the rules, and I am not sure why that should be

 

Our aim is not to provide classes to give some an excuse to get around them ( cheat could be another word for it ?)    People have modified bikes, and always will but there has to be a degree of responsibility and sportsmanship surely?

 

Anyway, thanks for replies, as stated they will all be read.  I am not sure if we can come up with some sort of consensus  as even when you read these posts there is great variation

 

We will study again before making a decision.