Sammy Miller Series 2017 - Proposed Changes

[collyolly]

So this is what trolling is is it ? ( I am the ultimate Technophobe, don't even use a mobile )

Well I have been well and truly caught, I believe I gave TTSpud the perfect formula for resolving his issues with our system, he could easily have set up the process to check bikes eligibility for his imaginary trials series before the event and then had complete control of the TTSpud 'Originals Trials Series' results and championship table for all these hordes of reluctant competitors just waiting to drag out their unmolested bikes and drag them round the easy route. Not going to happen is it ?

I am sure the ACU would have given him permission to use their results just to shut him up.

Why not post the pictures ? Perhaps some rivet counter would notice that the flinge bracket had an extra hole in it making it super light, can't possibly have any advantage can we except of course the imaginary ex-works bike. By the way all bikes came out of a workshop originally so perhaps we all have got one.

[charlie prescott]

Hi Guy's.

 

I am only just back from the Golden Isle Of Man, and still suffering the midge bites that I got standing out in pouring rain for four hours on Saturday along with the un-prasied  observers, just to take some photos.

 

Then I get back thinking stay out of this pointless discussion, while trying to down load a seventeen minuet video on Youtube that has taken twenty four hours only to be

 

told that it is two minutes over the fifteen that I am allowed , but it has done me a favour because in the last day the  constant going around in circles has told me that the

 

few posting on here discourages, any sensible debate on the future, or not on the British Bike Based trials scene.

 

I have done my bit in the past, and would do in the future if only we got help and encouragement to what you the few posting on here want? and you know you are only

 

the minority, most riders don't give a dam what is published on TC or BSA Otter.com and just get on trying to find a local trial to ride in next week end.

 

The AC-U have left it to late, and are only panicking now that Sam has said enough, and are trying to make it right by giving you the chance to help them out of the moire.

 

Have they contacted Deryk? who could easily give them pointers to, what might work in the future, or anyone else that has put there club and themselves on the line to run

 

trials that will encourage some of the dusty old bikes propping up the shed walls, back out to see daylight, or will they just rot in peace.

 

Unless someone willing to take a chance on losing £10,000 plus trying to organise an event or series for the bikes stated, the best thing is to shut up and let Allegory take its course.

 

Charlie.~Oo>

[rusty ken]

I am a novice who has only recently returned trials after 30+ years away form the sport, and have been riding a heavyweight 350 Matchless in local club events, so I probably fall into one of the categories of rider you are trying to encourage back out. 

 

My local club trials also attract a number of twin shock entries.  The Matchless has a Bamford frame, alloy rims, and modern rear shocks, so would fall into the proposed "modified" class.  Whilst I agree with previous comments that a modified cub, C15, etc is more than capable of  tackling the same obstacles as a twin shocker, to suggest that I would ride the same sections on my heavyweight is laughable.  I'm sure there are some experienced riders who could pilot a pre unit around the sections set for the twin shockers, but I for one don't think that it would be much fun, and would be leaving my pre-unit in the garage and either looking for a more modern bike or just abandoning the sport. 

 

Similar to mentions in some of the earlier posts, I look for events that I will enjoy and that will provide a bit of a challenge but that won't kill me. I agree with the earlier suggestion that sections should be set to allow almost every rider to paddle through for a 3, but understand that sections will be set to take marks off the top riders.  If these riders are on twin shocks and modified lightweights (2 stroke or 4 stroke) my hopes of an enjoyable day on my heavy weight pretty much disappear.  Given the apparent fall in entries from riders on pre unit bikes I may not be alone in this opinion. I share the view mentioned earlier that I'm not particularly interested in the scores of the top riders, rather how I compare to friends at a similar level, and in having a good day's sport.  If it was only about being competitive than I'd buy a modern bike and go and compete!

 

If we want to see pre unit British bikes at classic trials, then there needs to be a class for them, with suitable sections (the easy route?).  Otherwise the future is twin shock classes which can include heavily modified "Britshocks".

 

As a final thought, as the twin shock class develops and these bikes are developed and modified, and the sections become more challenging, will Britshocks still be competitive or are they on their way to becoming the pre-unit heavyweights of tomorrow?

[laird387]

Hi,

 

Way back in this totally pointless discussion, on post 86 collyolly asked if the original author of the 450 entries trials would elucidate.

 

I am the original author, so here is what I hope will be taken as the definitive answer.

 

Firstly credentials.  I, with the help of John Smith of the Rochdale club, and Derek Lord, decided that trying to ride in the trials of the time was getting to be dangerous. John used his uncle's Norton 500T, I had an Ariel, Derek Lord had a Triumph Tiger Cub, but knew the land we were proposing to use for a trial with sections set out to suit the older bikes. That was in August 1972 and we called it the Bigger Banger trial, gained an entry of 53 riders and the event was won by Arthur Lampkin riding one of his own collection of ex-works Gold Stars, his rigid.

 

We had a super day out everybody enjoyed themselves and we decided to organise regular trials on a similar basis to help people like ourselves, young working riders with young families who could not afford one of the new-fangled Spanish bikes - and used ones were few and far between and still above our price range - but we either organised trials for our old British bikes - or gave up motorcycling. 

 

Another point - the 'tag' pre-65 only ever referred to the pre-unit class of bikes, I know that is correct because I am sure that Mike Rapley will remember I first used that description in my column in TMX - but it was picked up universally and misused ever since...............

 

To progress, I also wrote for the now defunct British Bike Magazine, and they decided to support a series of trials that I was helping to organise around the country with help from the late Dennis Bridges of the Stratford on Avon club, the late Howard Midgley of the then Yorks and Lancs Classic Bike club (which later split into the Red Rose and Yorkshire Classic clubs) and Mickey Rees of the now defunct Islwyn club.  The series became known as the British Bike Championship and was organised primarily by myself but with radical help from Les Davis of the A-CU and also the team at the AMCA led by my very good friend Don Greene, it enabled riders affiliated both the A-CU and also AMCA clubs to participate.

 

Sadly British Bike Magazine collapsed, but Sammy Miller stepped in and offered sponsorship by way of end of year awards. I continued as Series Coordinator and did so for thirteen years.  In that role  I issued all the entry forms to riders who supplied a SAE but, more importantly, visited every club who wished to enter an event in the series, vetted the sections they planned to use, rode the sections they planned, suggested modifications to bring them to the series standard, then when I was satisfied assigned them a non-scoring round for them to prove they had the capability to run a championship event.  If that proved successful, they were then assigned one of the twelve rounds for the following year.  Quite a few clubs failed to meet the series standard.

 

As coordinator I maintained the series results and posted them out to every rider, I was present at every one of the Sammy Miller rounds during those, riding in many of them, photographing at others along with my late wife Mary, who photographed every one of the Sammy Miller rounds during those thirteen years.

 

From my copious sheets of results I kept a master sheet of every riders performance in each of those trials, which averaged between 150 and 250 entries at each event. AT THE END OF EACH YEAR EVERY RIDER WHO HAD RIDDEN IN THREE EVENTS OR MORE IN THAT YEAR GOT AN ILLUMINATED PERSONAL CERTIFICATE and for over TEN years i sent out 450 certificates a year.

 

THAT IS WHERE THE 450 DETAIL ORIGINATES, IT IS NOT A MYTHICAL ENTRY AS SOME TROLLS WOULD HOPE - IT IS A FACT, EACH YEAR AT LEAST FOUR HUNDRED AND FIFTY DIFFERENT RIDERS SUPPORTED AT LEAST THREE OF THE TWELVE EVENTS.

 

Sadly, to finish the story, Mary contracted cancer and passed away three years later, I was too busy looking after her with chemotherapy visits two days a week, etc., and the A-CU stepped in reorganised the series, dropping the association with the BMCA (the separate unit formed within the AMCA specifically to support classic events) and started just accepting offers to run events from any club, whether they were capable or not - and with no great surprise, the events degenerated. Support from the hardcore of riders diminished and that brings us up to date.

 

One last word from one who knows - I know it is way off topic - but it could help in lots of situations. Gnat bites (or as the Scots know them - midgie bites) are an avoidable bloody nuisance. You can buy all sorts of vastly expensive sprays which most people find less than effective - or you can go into your local Boots chemist, and it has to be Boots, and purchase a bottle of their 'Eau de Cologne' not the expensive '4711'  concoction but the simple big plain bottle of  BOOTS EAU DE COLOGNE, sprinkle a little in the palm of your head then apply a coating to any exposed skin, forehead , face, etc.  The midges hate it and they prefer to go away and bite somebody else.

 

Edited September 8, 2016 by laird387

[charlie prescott]

Hi Guys.

 

Thanks Deryk, on both counts.

 

Perhaps now everyone on here reading your statement  will realise how much hard work has to go into achieving a goal, and it is possible again if a young man or woman  would step up and take on that mantle?

 

However he or she would have to be totally dedicated to the history of British Pre unit trials bikes and know there limitations, so can it happen? time will tell.

 

Deryk i hope you and I are still about to see it!

 

And Yes next time I am straight down Boots>

 

Regards Charlie ~Oo>

[davetom]

What was the queuing like back then ? If you had 20-30 starting each section surely you'd spend a lot of time hanging about ? Sections would change a lot after being ridden 1000 times too ?

[laird387]

Hi davetom,

 

I am mystified. - how do you arrive at the thought that an entry of up to 250 riders - get to ride four times each through a section in a single lap road trial.  Remember the original series was reverting to the way trials used to be in the 1950s and early 1960s, single lap events of up to 70 miles round............

 

That is the problem - and I know it only too well - to have ridden in a trial, legally, before 1965, a rider would have to be at least sixty-seven years old today - and that is the nub of the problem. Modern riders are no longer (on the whole) motorcyclists who ride their bikes every day to work..............

 

Cheers

Deryk

[davetom]

That explains it then, thanks. Are multi lap off road trials a modern invention ?

[laird387]

hi dave,

 

"That explains it then, thanks. Are multi lap off road trials a modern invention ?"

 

There were occasionally club events that were multi-lap off-road, my first club was West Leeds and we ran multi-lap trials on our land (which we paid an annual rent for) perhaps a dozen times a year on Post Hill.  But Open-to-Centre and upwards events were never multi-lap off-road.  There was, of course, the very first trial there ever was, the Scott trial, which used two laps over a vast primarily off-road area, but the first multu-lap national event that I remember was the 1972 Inter-centre Team Trial which was a multi-lapper run on Burrington.

 

These are all fully reported with copious supporting photographs in our digital magazine, if you are really interested.

 

Cheers

Deryk

 

 

[on it]

  I have rode SM rounds and KIA  on a twin shock  so feel I can add something . What I can see is trials for these bikes are getting harder so catch 22 mod a bike or leave ? . It seems the people that have spent 1000s on a bike want harder sections more of a advantage ?,ANS ....Well start from scratch make the sections  for standard bikes ie easy ! yes modified  bikes will find it easy but they will not have that much of a advantage, how many times on these forums has someone put ive just got a bike what mods to do ?, It might also make people think whats the point of (spending 1000s )modifying my bike , As for loads of cleans ? well the oldest rider wins or a special test .  What I have found over the years it is harder to ride a easy trial than a hard trial . AS for the bikes  waist of time  trying to sort the bikes now  as it has BEEN let to get out of hand,  so make sections so there is NO advantage to a modified bike ,and please remember  to all these people that keep saying  "standard " back in the day it was 1 course suits all ! plus the sections were a lot harder then than now just not as tight !

[2stroke4stroke]

The multilap thing came in with a vengeance when the ACU barred events using more than one piece of ground during the foot and mouth epidemic of 1967. The remaining road events were, if I recall correctly, pretty well killed off by the oil crisis of the early 70s when road use for motorsport was effectively barred by the government.

Once they discovered that they didn't have to tax their bikes for these pocket handkerchief trials, as they were referred to, after the ACU relaxed the requirement to do so then trials riders were happy not to register them at all which destroyed entry levels for the few road trials left.

[woody]

Now that some form of tranquility has returned, maybe we can have some thoughts from riders who have participated in the series, what we think is actually wrong with the Miller series and why entries have dropped a little at some rounds,

 

Or is the current format acceptable and it may be just a certain amount of apathy that has seen riders drift in and out. I know quite a few riders who have taken part but have dropped out again, but they have also dropped out of other trials they competed in, including modern, so in those cases, occassional interest in trials in general can't be blamed on the Miller format. I know of other riders who get fed up with the maintenance of older bikes, British or twinshock, and just park them up and go back to their modern bikes until they find the enthusiasm to set to with the spanners again. No matter how thorough you are in preparation, 40 plus year old components and castings can give trouble at any point. The modern bike can be used without the same level of upkeep (generally)

 

It's possible also that some riders have lost interest in riding the same trials/sections since the series dropped to 7 rounds as they have been the same clubs who run events year in year out. This isn't a criticism of mine but I daresay it could be true of some other riders who feel it has gone a bit stale.

 

For me the format is pretty close to being right. Road based and a mix of twinshocks and British bikes. I'd be very disappointed if a decision was made to exclude twinshocks from a future format as these bikes have no other national series that offers the opportunity to ride traditional one lap road events. There is now the KIA yes, but it's offroad and also includes British and Monoshocks, so it isn't a twinshock series as some keep stating. Some riders travel together and one may have twinshock, the other British, so exclude one and you possible lose both. Personally I like the variety of bikes we have at the moment although it would be nice to see some older models of twinshocks out there, which brings me onto the next point.

 

Classes.

 

I'd like to see the big pre-units have their own class back as I don't think it appropriate that they are grouped in the same class as the smaller and modified bikes - Bantams, James, Cubs, C15 etc. So I'r run along the lines of:

 

Sidecar

Rigid

Pre-unit 4-stroke over 350cc  (did they do any under 350 as I'm no expert on Pre-units

Unit 4-stroke over 350cc

Unit 4-stroke and 2-stroke up to 350cc

 

And for twinshocks I'd like to see a Pre and Post 1976 class. I don't like the idea of Spanish and non-Spanish classes as I don't think it achieves anything. With this split you give riders of earlier bikes the chance to compete in a class against each other as I'm reasonably sure that at the moment they won't take part as they think that the sections are set for Fantics etc. This isn't true at all but people believe what is written on forums etc by others who don't even take part... I've ridden my 1970 Sherpa on the hard route there have been no sections too hard for the bike. There have been some, but they are an exception in a couple of trials, where some sections have been too tight, requiring clutch/brake inching around turns - which I hate, The bike will still do them but it's a struggle and a clean very hard to achieve whereas on a more modern of modified Pre65 they are a no challenge.

 

The 1976 break is a natural as that was the year that longer travel suspension started as well as complete redesigns of current models. Montesa 348, 349, Ossa MAR MK3 with angled dampers, Green MAR, Yamaha Majesty, Beamish, Fantic,SWM etc all go in Post 76 leaving the older Spanish models, RL Suzuki, KT, TY175 and 250, TL Honda etc all in the earlier class.  Yes some models cross over such as the Montesa 247 and the TY175 and 250 but they barely changed so a later model is technically the same as the earlier model, so I'd put them as pre-76

 

Components for the twinshocks should be limited to only allowing what was available at that time which means nothing later than 1986, so if someone has Yam mono forks it doesn't matter, they could have done that then as they came out in '83 - plus they won't turn a bike into a 'cheating winner'. Their better action would be barely noticeable. Also, a lot of bikes also have them fitted and it isn't right to make people retro fit parts now. Frames and engines should be from the appropriate period, so if you have a combination of an early / late frame or engine, you enter the later class. Wheels I wouldn't worry about as many bridge the two periods. Minimalists rules which are hopefully easy to police. Tubeless rims allowed and carburettors free.

 

I think the modification of twinshocks is a lot less of an issue than is written about. Yes there are some but most of the bikes I see competing are close to standard, ie: they haven't had frames chopped, may have had footrests altered but still run most of the original components. As bars are a lot lower now than they were in the 70s some (me included being tall) fit bar risers or have the yoke modified to allow bar risers as they are difficult to fit to swept back mounts such as Bultaco / Yamaha. Yes, a small few go berserk and think you need head angles altering, big volume airboxes (what's that all about when a trials bike spends most of it's time on quarter throttle...) modern forks, special exhausts etc etc but for what purpose. Today's classic trials are nowhere near the severity of an old centre trial. People telling you that you need this mod and that mod to make your twinshock competitive for today's 'modern' classic sections talk hogwash. I well remember what Mark Hicken could do on a 240 Fantic back then without any of these mods on sections that would have a classic trial entry from today pack up and go home without unloading their bikes...

 

For routes I'd keep the current format which allows the option of a third easy route where needed for rigids and sidecars, so that's route 1 - hard, route 2 - easy and route 3 - rigid/sidecar.  All other classes other than sidecar/rigid have the option of entering route 1 or route 2. Rigid/sidecar do route 2 when no route 3

 

That's how I'd like to see it go forward, hopefully the reintroduction of the pre-unit class would bring more of those bikes back and the twinshock split might see more older twinshocks competing

 

From what I've seen over the years, section severity across all routes is suitable for all, obviously there are exceptions due to weather or when organisers just get things wrong (we all make mistakes) but I would like to see some sightly more challenging sections on the harder route from time to time. That doesn't mean dangerous of tight, just a bit more challenging as some rounds can be very easy and if you have a chain derail for example it's the end of any chance of a top place as there is no opportunity to pull marks back

 

My thoughts anyway - any more?

 

EDIT:  And no specials class  for twinshock. There is no need and standard-ish bikes are more than adequate. Giving a class to specials just encourages people to construct them. If they don't comly with the rules, let them ride on a no points basis but don't have a seperate championship class for them

Edited September 8, 2016 by woody

[floydbassman]

Reading all this with interest.I am a 56 year old novice to riding trials events, all my previous riding has been on old waste ground back in the 70s and 80s on a 247 Cota, 250 Gripper, and, my first bike, bought in 72 for 20 quid and which I am presently riding, a Greeves TFS. I started riding in local club trials last september after putting the Greeves back together after it being in boxes for the last 35 odd years, (Eastbourne Club). Quite an experience riding sections laid out for modern bikes, but the easy routes for the most part are doable. The only limitation is my riding skill. There are quite a few who ride on twinshock bikes of all types, TYs, Spanish 70s bikes, Beamish, Fantics, and a few British bikes. One trial that I did last Feburary whichI thought was a great trial for classic bikes of all classes was the Red Tape trial, helld at Deepcut near Bagshot, Surrey. They seemed to have got it right with 2 routes, yellow and the harder red route. I rode the red route because I misread the entry form, not realising I could have done the yellow route, the weak link being me, the rider. The bike performed as it should. I ended up retiring after 3 laps due to running out of time, (spent looking at some amazing bikes..). This is one event I am definitely riding next year. It catered for practically all classes from 50s rigid up to a few modern bikes with everything else in between including specials, my favourite being the Ariel Arrow 250 twin engined bike. ( i cant remember if there was any sidecars there).. My bike's mods are basic, like Domino slow action throttle, modern plastic mudguards instead of the original Butler ones as I tend to break em a lot.. Renthal bars,folding footrests to comply with modern regs,  chain tensioner and external ignition coil and condenser, and alloy rims with stainless spokes. Still using points ignition, it starts 3rd kick from cold no problem.( I will put a pic up tomorow.). Dont know if anyone else on here was at the Red Tape, but it ticked all the boxes for me with suitably challenging sections for the experienced riders and yellow for the novices and less agile older bikes.

[cub200]

I am a 70 year old veteran whose first road trial was the B'ham Clubs James Trophy trial in 1964 where I won the novice award and have been riding in events ever since so I have seen a few changes.

 

My interest these days and for the last 20 years has been Pre 65 or Classic bikes, whatever you want to call them, I rode in the IoM Classic International trial last year and plan to do it again in 2017, I have been living in Australia since 1980.

There have been loads of dribble and nonsense written on this thread about the SM series but the one guy who hit it on the head was "on It" about 4 comments ago.

I totally agree about the section severity dictating how much money and engineering has to go into the bikes for those with the desire to win trophies.

When you work it out, around 70% of all trial entries are average riders and by making the sections more and more difficult to take marks off the best riders then its no wonder that entry levels are falling and guys drop out of the sport because they don't want to make the financial commitment to improving their bike, damage their bike or themselves knowing they are only there to make money for the organising club or the ACU.

 

Who cares if 4/5 riders have an easy day and don't loose a mark, and if those riders do care and want the massive challenge all the time then let them go and organise their own events and take all the "Specials" with them.

As "on it" said, the oldest rider wins the ties which would encourage old farts like me to keep giving it a go.

 

Lastly, nothing gets sorted out on these forums, they're just outlets for the usual windbags to let off steam and there's been a few on this topic.

The only way to bring about change is to do it through your club officials, get a few clubs together, get the centres agreeing after a meeting somewhere and then put it to the ACU committees.

Now I wait to be shot down

 

Galps   

[collyolly]

Well I have been away for a couple of days and now find the Weido has removed all of his posts, so this thread now does not make much sense.

Perhaps my idea of being the co-ordinator of 'The Originals' of the sport scared him s---less, what a waste of space, the sport really does need his help (not)