Sammy Miller Series 2017 - Proposed Changes

[on it]

4 minutes ago, elliseng said:

Some really interesting views above, as a younger generation interested in PRE 65 trials I can see the appeal to both sides.

I am heavily involved in Classic Car Trials and we too have similar issues with vehicles being modified/modernised with fors & against continually causing upset. The only organisation I have experienced that have kept things in control are the VSCC (Vintage Sports Car Club).

Amazingly they have kept rules enforcing period parts with no modern gizmos (no modern electrics etc) and there trials events are always over subscribed @ 100+ entries. You would imagine these events to be all softy softy but they are far from it using historic style sections giving they old cars a serious work out. The class structure is very simple (like Deryks original setup) and the cars are incredible. The cars are all log booked for eligibility before they can be used. Within the rules people still develop their cars to make them more competitive but this is all nice basic tinkering which makes for good fun........one major downside is the ever increasing value of the base vehicles  

Not saying this could be done retrospectively but food for thought....    

is any of this anything to do with OFF ROAD TRIALS  motor cycles  the problem ls ttspud is going to the wrong TRIALS he is turning up to off road trials he needs to go to classic trials  like you have with your cars

[old trials fanatic]

Has anybody ever seen this mythical ttspud machine ? Be interesting to see the bike thats causing all the furore. 

[woody]

And now the next round bites the dust as well. Mid Wales have cancelled theirs which was scheduled for this weekend. Around 14 entries was the last I heard

How many clubs are going to want to put a round on next year with this level of interest? Doesn't bode well. Two rounds left this year with the Greensmith opting out of the series. Be interesting to see how many entries they attract.

[jon v8]

That's not looking good, I hope the Greensmith goes ahead,I rode it for the first time last year and really enjoyed it. Be nice to ride it on my BSA if its back together in time...

[woody]

Tim has confirmed tonight that the Greensmith is definitely going ahead on15th October starting from the Farlow & Oreton Village hall in the Clee Hill area of Shropshire and as in previous years be suitable for all  British & Twinshock classes including sidecars.

So there you have it from the organiser - definitely on, just not part of the Classic championship

[elliseng]

23 hours ago, on it said:

is any of this anything to do with OFF ROAD TRIALS  motor cycles  the problem ls ttspud is going to the wrong TRIALS he is turning up to off road trials he needs to go to classic trials  like you have with your cars

Yes this is OFF ROAD TRIALS, very much the same principle as a motorcycle trial. Some events using road miles linking observed sections, others are single venue. Some events are combined with motorcycles & sidecars. The sections are graded (distance climbed) for cars and standard 0,1,2,3,5 for bikes. 

The above wasn't really where I was heading...It was more that the VSCC have locked down the machine eligibility side of things using a logbook system and it hasn't reduced entry numbers.

I'm on the fence either way was just throwing out some ideas as as youngster hoping to see the Pre 65 scene keeps going.

[on it]

1 hour ago, elliseng said:

Yes this is OFF ROAD TRIALS, very much the same principle as a motorcycle trial. Some events using road miles linking observed sections, others are single venue. Some events are combined with motorcycles & sidecars. The sections are graded (distance climbed) for cars and standard 0,1,2,3,5 for bikes. 

The above wasn't really where I was heading...It was more that the VSCC have locked down the machine eligibility side of things using a logbook system and it hasn't reduced entry numbers.

I'm on the fence either way was just throwing out some ideas as as youngster hoping to see the Pre 65 scene keeps going.

thanks for letting us know about these sort of trials. I think they are the sort of trials ttspud needs to be going to  ticks ALL the boxes for him

Edited July 25, 2017 by on it
spelling

[ttspud]

Quote

otf: Has anybody ever seen this mythical ttspud machine ? Be interesting to see the bike thats causing all the furore. 

Go a page back and you can see it, AJS 16C as the one pictured at the bottom with rerouted exhaust and modified oil tank (in other words the bike has not changed since back in the day).

Quote

on it: Do you really believe  making all pre 65s back to bog standard will increase entries ?

Obviously with so few original bikes left, no.  Hence the 'sub-class' concept that changes nothing for modified bikes and incidentally re scrutineering the modifieds would not need scrutineering either.  Obviously some form of validation/scrutineering would be need for originals but that could be done in many ways to ease pressure on the day.  Given that there are so few originals, it would be a good step to take. 

Quote

Quote

 on it: I think you will find  the ACU are doing it 

Doing what, changing the rules/classes again?

Edited July 25, 2017 by ttspud

[davetom]

Do you ride the Talmag on your Ajs ?

[on it]

53 minutes ago, ttspud said:

Go a page back and you can see it, AJS 16C as the one pictured at the bottom with rerouted exhaust and modified oil tank (in other words the bike has not changed since back in the day).

Obviously with so few original bikes left, no.  Hence the 'sub-class' concept that changes nothing for modified bikes and incidentally re scrutineering the modifieds would not need scrutineering either.  Obviously some form of validation/scrutineering would be need for originals but that could be done in many ways to ease pressure on the day.  Given that there are so few originals, it would be a good step to take. 

Doing what, changing the rules/classes again?

If there so few originals left Why would the ACU & CLUBS go to all the extra bother for 1or 2 bikes extra in a entry ,  TELL US ttspud  ,Will you -----ride every round of the championship, how scrutineering will  be done ,if its the same as pictured then its NOT original "Rerouted exhaust and modified oil tank " its a modified pre 65 "start of the problem" ! round &round we go

[ttspud]

Quote

If there so few originals left Why would the ACU & CLUBS go to all the extra bother for 1or 2 bikes extra in a entry ,  TELL US

There is no extra bother, just add 'sub-class' to the entry form, no big deal there, and display that on the results.  The scrutineering is a small issue at the events I go to given only the originals (the few) would require it and of course other means, if it brought bikes back in larger numbers (isnt that a good thing?), could be explored also to help prior to the day.

Quote

"Rerouted exhaust and modified oil tank " its a modified pre 65 "start of the problem" ! round &round we go

So, draw the line somewhere else if you think it should be tighter than that, if you ride an original bike you are of course entitled to a different opinion (or perhaps you want a prestige sub-class).  Probably best though to ask original riders (as in those that already ride to the original rules on original bikes) or draw the line where the original rules had it ie original frame, forks, engine, gearbox, hubs and ignition.  The reason for including the rerouted exhaust etc is for the same reason, those were mods done in the day, as you see in the 1962 picture, mostly for practical reasons and were accepted in the original rules.

Edited July 25, 2017 by ttspud

[b40rt]

ttspud sub class, problem solved.

[on it]

12 hours ago, ttspud said:

There is no extra bother, just add 'sub-class' to the entry form, no big deal there, and display that on the results.  The scrutineering is a small issue at the events I go to given only the originals (the few) would require it and of course other means, if it brought bikes back in larger numbers (isnt that a good thing?), could be explored also to help prior to the day.

So, draw the line somewhere else if you think it should be tighter than that, if you ride an original bike you are of course entitled to a different opinion (or perhaps you want a prestige sub-class).  Probably best though to ask original riders (as in those that already ride to the original rules on original bikes) or draw the line where the original rules had it ie original frame, forks, engine, gearbox, hubs and ignition.  The reason for including the rerouted exhaust etc is for the same reason, those were mods done in the day, as you see in the 1962 picture, mostly for practical reasons and were accepted in the original rules.

Ask original riders ? they are in there 80s now "as in those that ride to the original rules on original bikes" SO WHY DONT YOU RIDE IN THAT CLASS ?   they manage too  WHY NOT YOU  .  YOUR the 1 HARPING  on about , hard sections / not fair to ride against the modded bikes / NO ORIGINAL bike sub classes /need original bike scrutineering / I want class for ttspuds bike . & as for the "original rules "  turn up ride ,the 1 course 1 set of flags ride as a nov/inter/ex & A trials tyre to be fitted  that was it ! back in the day . yep draw the line leave it as it is it works ,bikes are out being ridden on a weekend, Do I care if i see a original 1962 or a new 2017 bike NO I go to ride my bike  at a trial and do the best i can on it. What is the real problem here the bike or the rider ? . Nothing you have come up with is going to save a failing championship which is the topic ,What dose it boil down to ? the cost has to be, as there are trials/ riders /bikes ,but no entrys  So commit to a championship (cheep motor sport ) the rest is not hotels /food /fuel /the miles on your motor / travel 5hrs 1way/ sort the bike for the next round /try to get bits/ cost of bits if found/time to do all that & fit in home life and work  and we wonder why entrys drop off after a few rounds of championship ,I dont think it has anything to do with the rules its more to do with cost and time .Sad but no matter what the  acu/clubs do its out of there hands if people dont put a entry in  (so use it or loose it ) & Sad to say looks like championships are going to be a thing of the past

Edited July 26, 2017 by on it
add more

[ttspud]

@on it

You are going off the deep end.

Quote

Ask original riders ? they are in there 80s now "as in those that ride to the original rules on original bikes" SO WHY DONT YOU RIDE IN THAT CLASS ?   they manage too  WHY NOT YOU

If you had taken any notice at all, I do still ride an original bike on the hard course.  No, I am not in my 80s and I see no riders of original bikes in their 80s in the hard course in my class.  As I understand it, you don't ride pre65 at all, as you say " NO I do not ride or own a pre 65 bike ".  So before drawing the wrong conclusions perhaps you could start by getting your facts straight.

Quote

Nothing you have come up with is going to save a failing championship which is the topic

Well, the new ACU rules/classes have obviously failed and to be fair they are terrible, most people could have pointed that out before they made it to the entry form.  Overlapping classes and so on.  Some classes have not even attracted any entries at all.  I am sure that the committee worked hard to come up with those classes, but perhaps they should have consulted someone more experienced to help, such as the person who was part of the original creation himself.  And the failure is not something that has just happened nor that will quickly be solved by any means., nor just for that series but across the entire sport.  It has taken decades of deterioration (though an ACU representative was reported to have called it 'evolution') to get to this point, and it will likely take decades of work to put it right, if ever.   

You may attack my idea, you may attack anyone who dares to put forward evidence that actually preserving the machinery works (as it does in all other vintage sports of which pre65 is) at keeping entry numbers up, you may get visceral and abusive, ranting, putting forward things that are untrue, as others here do, and so on, but in the end, as you say, it is the sport that is suffering, when the original series that had 450 entrants who made the final standings by entering at least x different events is now down to just a few modified bikes, one or two original bikes, and a few more pre85 bikes and even that cant sustain an entry worth putting on an event for for that series, perhaps it is time to not discount all ideas about allowing machinery to be nothing like pre65 and pushing out all original bikes.  To at least try?  But this has been said a thousand times, nothing changes, and it all falls on deaf ears.  "Closing the barn door after the horse has bolted", just means that people seem to have given in.  Then, usually, in the end when the discourse becomes overly abusive, it becomes a waste of time discussing it at all and then no-one gains, not the sport, no-one.

I will continue to enter, continue to get my fives, as I have done for years and enjoy the day greatly as long as the event in my area survives, and touch wood, it is.  There are many other issues affecting it too, but for now it goes on.  Next year the cost will go up dramatically or they will need to find another venue, neither an easy choice given it is already under pressure and has always been at the same venue.  So it obviously isnt just the decline of original bikes due to the flouting of the rules, but the sport is under pressure from many other factors too.  I have simply been trying to address an issue that I can help with hopefully without affecting much else.  To me, Improving one issue is always a good thing even if it is not the solution to all of the problems facing the sport.  

Quote

Sad to say looks like championships are going to be a thing of the past

Yes, it is terribly sad, my heart goes out to those clubs trying to keep the events going, which is exactly where we came in.

[on it]

well they we have it ! SAME as other vintage sports it is NOT and never will be  That stable door was opened a long long time ago and the horse is long dead  ! yes people have given up ,with what they have to work with its the best of a bad job so good or bad there is a set of rules to follow "the end"  but  suppose its easy to blame the rules for everything .Yes but  a new set of rules will turn the clock back to the good old days  when the series had 450 how long ago was that, NO TIMES and PEOPLE move on, them days have LONG GONE ! i would love to see the sport back to the numbers of the 70s dont ever think I will  

for your info ttspud i ride a twinshock IN championships i also ride a new bike IN championships and i seen how things are going and I hear people say it needs another class/ another course  & will that then fix everything ! no because someone will not like them rules or that course and round we go again !!!!!!        Sorry  WHY is it so important to save a original bike ?, if it so special or worth a fortune why ride it in sections were it could get damaged ?