Sammy Miller Series 2017 - Proposed Changes

[john collins]

Guys

There seems to be more interest in analysis ,  surveys and the like and how it all went wrong in past, and ACU should  allow someone else to do it – fine –   get on with it.    if you are volunteering send me a name and address   and we will  involve you . 

 

What I have not seen is many positive suggestions about future ,  and many realistic  comments about how it all needs to work

 

Consultation to end of year ?     Sounds great put unrealistic .    Perhaps we need to consider how things actually work:   This  may be good as it should certainly be known regardless of which type of event

 

Clubs /Centres have to apply for rounds. It does not matter if they are SM or  Solo British Championship or anything else.

 

In order to do this, they need some idea of format etc.   Which is where we are at present – actually doing it.      Many clubs now no longer meet on a weekly basis, often perhaps a couple of time or even once a month

Clubs and Centres require a their calendars fixed  by about first week in Nov  (   Many meet on Remembrance  Sunday for final sort  but many  say that is too late)

 

It is not just about various  Championships for them, they obviously put these in first, but then have to fit in all normal Centre & Club events around them. This is important for land, observers and so on.  They want Centre Calendars to go to printers and so on and so forth. They want them compiled as early as possible

So  they want  it finalised start Nov if possible ( often it is not)

 

When applications for all the Championships are sent in , inevitably there are clashes  and the they have to be resolved. Clubs are re-contacted, but of course people are in work, have to consult with others in their club at next meeting and so on.   Once applications are in it will probably take about 4 weeks to get it all fixed – and that is being extremely optimistic.

 

It is easy to think that a SM round or anything else will not be affected by something which is completely different to it – i.e   Keedewell   British Championship , or even UK World round – but that is not correct. Often Club members   who actually do work, observe and ride in other events   some completely different types,  may not be available on a certain date so club  that need them cannot clash with events which at first glance can seem to be no problem.  This is often case in my own club.  It is easy to think these events just happen by magic – they do not.

 

All that is fact – accept it or not , but it is.  This means that first applications really need to be back from organisers by end of Sept. This means we are actually already on late side ,  as they are not sent out yet so consultation to end of year is not going to happen.   It is going to be days

 

Ah I hear you ask, why not start sooner ?   Many reasons but not least as at present we still await FIM World Trial dates, FIM Europe Trials dates and these in turn affect RT Keedweel Champ,  Ladies & Girls Champ,   &  Youth Champ.  Some ( who probably know very little about how events actually happen   may think  that is not important – as I have explained it is. 

 

The reason I offered you the chance to put forward view was that someone had prematurely put on  TC  a suggested format that was not confirmed, so rather than have huge debate about that I suggested those with some definite views on how it should be for 2017 put them down.  It does seem however many are more interested in talking the talk rather than  suggesting anything

 

That is fine, if you just want the excuse of not contributing just keep impressing people with your knowledge of past , and how you would have done it differently.

        I do not accept that anyone presently involved cannot do this – if they want to.

 

I too rode Sammy Miler round for many years, and at any given time I am sure I would have had an opinion of what classes  etc there should be. Who should be catered for ?  We have this discussion in our club almost every week

 

If you need time to think about it, or are put out as you did not do a survey or are more interested on analysis of past,   where it went wrong  then fine , leave it alone.

 

There are about 120 riders who have scored points in the various classes in 2016 , and we could just leave these alone, and I could be down pub.

 

However, as I said earlier those who wish to by Monday suggest the classes they would like to see , the opportunity is there.   Up to you if you wish to take it.  I have written this tonight,  you can do same and also Sunday and Monday

 

So, for those interested in positives rather than negatives.      Your starter for 10

 

1) There will be no Sammy Miller series  in 2017

 

2)  There will be an ACU Classic series  subject to organisers and dates being sorted within a week or two)

 

3)   There will be an opportunity  for some “ Off road applications”  -   max number of laps and min distance

 

4) The format  will be  hopefully be sent out to potential organisers  within days

  What type of carb, wheels, hubs, frames and so on are not at present the burning issues – these can come later and yes there can if you like be more consultation

 

At present what is needs is :

                            5)       What Classes   & How many routes  ?

 

Respond   on point 5 if you wish ,  that is starting point   but by Monday afternoon

 

John Collins

[john collins]

Thank you for two positive posts.     I will take on board as will other T & E members

 

Things are never quite as simple, as from our point of view we have to have organisers and that is our first  remit i.e to invite applications.

 

I will not expand at moment as hopefully there will be other views, but none will be ignored

[collyolly]

Hi all, just got back from the S.W.C.T.A. 2 day in the West Country , what a fantastic couple of days sport, not even spoiled by the torrential rain on the first day (observers may not agree !)

For the first time we had 3 routes to give us a choice of severity, 2 complete routes then a third made up of a 50/50 mix of the two.

This means a limited amount of additional work for the organisers but gave me, a rider of a pre unit the chance to ride some harder sections together with the usual tricky runs through the streams.

From this my suggestion would be a simple one to keep the interest going -

1/ Gentle men's route for the main pre 65 class and the less experianced twin shock rider

2/ Star route for the expert pre 65 rider and expert twin shock

3/ 50 / 50 route for the pre 65 and twin shock rider wanting a challenge but not a broken bike ! ( although I must say the whole hard route looked very sensible this weekend but you never know how these are going to ride and it's a long way to travel for a struggle round if the trial is pitched specifically to take marks off the expert twin shocks as I feel the Sammy series has become )

We have been operating the multi route system in the south east centre for many years at group trial level and it is very successful

The problem with breaking down the classes into capacities is that you will turn up an event and find you are the only rider in the class !

A few years ago we had to bundle all of the pre 65 classes ( there were - pre unit, unit, 2 stroke and rigid ) with the twin shocks just to get a compeditive group in our area so let's not go down the route of multi class, just get the severity of the sections right and I will ride my pre unit against any other old bike.

[john collins]

Hi guys

 

I think it can be seen the diversity of views re classes etc

 

This has really always been the problem. many views and while almost all are valid, it is easy to get into a mess

 

Just a few things that we as T & E have to consider

 

There is a huge difference in last few years with running events.  Not least the MSA Approval required if part of event goes on road , the S33 Local Authority approval even  for off road parts.

 

The bureaucracy  - and yes ACU are responsible for much of it ( good topic for another post !   as that is far from easy to digest)  

 

I have been Clerk of Course for a whole range of event ranging from the old Sebac series classic type events to British Championships and World Championships .    Across the range, therefore a club that puts on event - any events has a lot to do and a lot of responsibility to take. Far more than ever before

 

Therefore,  they require a good entry to make an event both viable and justify the work.   Most do not do it to make money but work on a break even situation across the season 

 

The problem has been that while some classes have diminished for all sorts of reasons, in order to maintain viability - and for T & E to get organisers who wish to run a Champ event, there has undoubtedly been an influx of more and more classes and sometimes Specials  ( and that word in itself can be used in many more classes than just that titled class?) 

 

If you ride one of these .eg Spanish Twinshock - one is happy

 

If you ride a more standard British Bike, it is very easy to feel the sections etc are  marked to suit them and the pleasure can go out f it all and hence participation of the older bikes

 

I am quite attracted to the idea of returning to a more British Bike series = but will it get entries and will organisers come forward?

 

I can only presume that the authors of many of these posts are hard working members of their own clubs like T & E members are.

 

Can we togeteht persuade our Clubs to apply for a round

 

It is chicken and egg situation.   If we revert  more to original concepts, entries may flood in,  but if they do not at least at initial stages organisers are might peed off and not surprisingly those from classes then excluded soon say - what did you expect when you took our classes away ?

 

A conundrum  ?     Which is why I initially asked for classes that people want

 

There are some good responses, but they do intend to be from a limited number of contributors

 

We will continue reading throughout the day and then try to collate the view with thos already sent in

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[turbo]

In all honesty having ridden the series since around 2007 I have always felt that the series was ,and should remain the domain of the older pre 65 bike ,and us twin shockers have really been there by invite and to make the numbers up therefore making the event viable . I have had no problem with this and have enjoyed many fine events held in lovely parts of Britain . I know its putting the clock back but I think the day has come for the series to revert back to its roots and become a British bike only event  , what bikes qualify for that I will leave to the experts . I have also noted that the main problem areas relate to the pre65 class and very little is actually mentioned about twinshock so maybe its best if we stay out of the way . I remain doubtful that many of the people who post on this forum still would not follow a revamped series !. Lets be clear , call a spade a spade , the Kia series has hit the spot with a lot of twin shockers , expertly coordinated by Gerry Minshall and team ,good venues , well organised etc etc I have only ridden a couple since their conception but the numbers speak for themselves . I have concentrated on the Sammy series this year ,last round cancelled at short notice ,the one before that poorly supported this year . I think my mind is made up now as to what series I will follow next year !. 

 

 

[jon v8]

OK, here is my proposal, its simple and easy for clubs to  administer and riders to enter the right class.

 

1 Pre70 Sidecar.

2 Rigid.

3 Pre unit springer.

4 Pre70 unit,(including Villiers engines for those who argue they are pre-unit) 2 or 4 stroke.

5 Twinshock.

 

Classes 1,2 and 3 ride the B or clubman route, classes 4 and 5 can choose either Expert or Clubman route. The club, at its own discretion  can exclude classes 1 or 2 from individual sections or use deviations for classes 1 or 2, or both if a particular section cannot be made appropriate.

I can't see any point in arguing over machine eligibility,people have spent their time and money - just want to ride,and even the best bike in the world won't make you a winner - you still have to ride the bloody thing. Plus there is often very little time before the trial to check bikes over when people have driven long distances. Lastly, its difficult enough to get help to run a club now, who is going to volunteer to take on a task of chucking out bikes and having rows with owners - its meant to be a fun pastime...

[old trials fanatic]

The problem, as I see it,for the twostroke classes are the modern reincarnations of previously existing models - but with fascinating little modern tweaks!

 

Bearing in mind the eligibility cut-off date for the twostroke class was 31 December 1968, that would rule out, for example, any four-speed Bantam motor (The first factory experiments with the four-speed were in the early summer of 1972........)

 

My suggestion for this dilemma would be to create a separate class for them, entitled 'Britshock', into which all the Drayton, and similar, models could happily compete against each other.  In the class I would also include all the modern built James and Francis-Barnett lookalikes, with their interesting little reed valved interiors.  The object never was, and in my view never should be to exclude anyone - merely to get them to compete fairly against similarly equipped machines.

 

As to when twostrokes were first ridden in trials, it is not necessary to read my good friend Max King's book - simply remember that the very first observed trial for motorcycles anywhere in the world was created just over a hundred years ago and preparations are in full swing for this years event.  The event?   The Scott trial, organised to create a competition for the test riders of Scott twostroke, two cylinder, two-speed motorcycles.

Deryk can you please tell me where i can get the reed valve modification done for my 32A i'm genuinely interested. Thanks.

[john collins]

Thanks for posts

 

All will be read and added in to previous surveys , comments,   etc  before classes are finalised

 

I do know form experience that there is one big problem with some of classes suggested, which in themselves sound ok and that is te policing of it

 

Someone said it is easy to tell if a bike is  such and such ?  I am not so sure. Certainly there are classic experts out there who know all this and can tell year/ modifications and so on.  Unfortunately these people will not be at event ( unless someone wishes to volunteer ?  serous question -  )  

 

Organisers rarely have the time or inclination, they have much to do on a morning  and machine examiner often is just that - checking normal things and not necessarily an expert into the exact dimensions of a frame etc.  Fork diameter is easier and i think we will certainly re-instate this

 

I have to say in past, whatever rules we made, ie Pre this or that or certain forks or carbs , many seem to have taken a great delight in circumnavigating the rules, and I am not sure why that should be

 

Our aim is not to provide classes to give some an excuse to get around them ( cheat could be another word for it ?)    People have modified bikes, and always will but there has to be a degree of responsibility and sportsmanship surely?

 

Anyway, thanks for replies, as stated they will all be read.  I am not sure if we can come up with some sort of consensus  as even when you read these posts there is great variation

 

We will study again before making a decision.

 

 

 

 

 

[jon v8]

Well, sport has to be fair, it is that simple.  

 

Deryk's highly successful series may, for one of many reasons, have been successful because it was designed to be fair and, from what I understand, the regulations were enforced rigourously.  And the bikes back then were nowhere near as modified as those today which can be 40kg+ lighter than their original counterpart just in comparing 4stroke to 4stroke.  

 

So, the original regulations put all modified bikes into a single class, 'Specials' which would still be an option, but perhaps a better way for the future would be to add a marker (sub-class) given that there are more modifieds now across all classes.  Thus riders of modified bikes can compete fairly, and so can riders of originals.  If the SM series decline has proved anything, it is possibly that no sport can prosper if it is not fair.

 

 

Yes.

 

That is an issue but perhaps it has to be faced.  Hopefully it will be fairly easy to pick out a modified bike.  If it is the original frame, it is very likely to be either an original or prestige.  And someone that has gone to the trouble of replacing the frame is very likely to have gone much further anyway making those bikes easier to spot.  Originals, as described, would retain the original frame, engine, hubs, brakes, ignition, tank, seat and so on.  How many modified bikes do you see with a modified frame but without modified ignition, tank or seat?

 

All the best, TTSpud

I think its desparately unfair that Dougie Lampkin is a way better rider than I could ever dream of being,so what do I do - DEAL with it,get on and ride,pitch myself against other riders I know of similar or slightly better ability.I rode for years with very little success,but I still rode,and for the most part really enjoyed it.Still do it now,as do most other riders I know,there are more battles going on than any score sheet can show.Rider ability is what wins,not the bike.

If I went to a trial and was turned away because my AJS is currently running an electronic mag and Rickman hubs, I can tell you what would happen - I just wouldn't go back,I'd ride elsewhere. The WHOLE key to this ,and always has been is in the marking of the sections,nothing more,nothing less. Using the classes I outlined anyone with a British bike of any standard can turn up,ride and enjoy themselves. Go to the Somerton Classic British 2 Day at Priddy if you want to see a shining example of how it is still being done. They get riders from all over and its more popular each year. No arguments,just an excellent weekend of trials with bikes from 1929 to the latest trick 2016 Bantam. 

All the Miller rounds in the last few years I have ridden,apart from one were marked out largely in an appropriate way.So the clubs clearly know what is needed, its just a simple set of easy to organise classes that are needed to sort it out.

[trialsrfun]

Might it be the trials that are wrong not the bikes, if traditional sections are used where all types of bike can be ridden then the advantage gained from modification is reduced.

So what if a few finish with little or no marks lost.

[davetom]

What Jon says .. You decide in your head who you're competing against, whether it's a skilled rider on a rigid, or a novice on a billet Bantam, you don't need a raft of classes and sub-classes or things get complicated. Well plotted sections with an easy and hard route, and maybe a mix of those if you want an Inters class.

Sidecar,Rigid. pre-unit, Unit and maybe Twinshocks for anything post 70?

[collyolly]

In my opinion the whole original bike argument is totally flawed, just riding in the current era means we all use soft 'sticky' tires, the grip levels compared to the 1960's means sections can and are plotted on a totally different level.

As soon as you start saying that modern shocks, tires, handlebars, levers, twist grips, rubbers, let's face it the list is endless, you will not have an original bike.

All clubs face the dilemma on the day of finding enough help to man the sections, sign on the riders and ensure the event is safe without the ridiculous task of checking machine eligibility and then to possibly have the task of advising Mr Trials competitor who has driven for 4 or 5 hours to participate that even though he/she has ridden in that class all season you have decided that the thingy on his whatsit is the wrong side of 1965

I have ridden the Talmag the last few years and one of their stipulations is no electronic ignition, that's one trial a year that mentions it, never heard of anyone being turned away but have seen plenty of new style BTH mags there !

We all know the situation with regard to modifications has gone too far so let's all ride as 'specials' and leave the original enthusiasts to count rivets.

[woody]

Please, can we put to rest this issue of 'cheating' and 'cheat bikes'. Times have moved on whether you like it or not. It's now the norm for Pre65 bikes to be of the modified variety and has been for years. Pre65 is just the class label - is it really that important that it needs to be constantly nit-picked?

 

They aren't cheat bikes for god sake, they are only cheats if they are hiding modifications that give an advantage. Tehy were cheat bikes when they first appeared nearly 30 years ago yes, when no-one knew what some top riders were having done to their bikes, but now, none of the mods are hidden or unknown as they all have them, they are the norm and these are the bikes that people choose to ride. This talk of eligibility and rules is just distracting the topic from the real issue which is 'what is wrong with the Miller series' - and it has nothing to do with eligibility. If you really think clubs can provide 'experts' to examine each and every machine for 'rule' flouting then you're in fantasy land. None of the competitors are bothered about who has what components fitted to their bikes. I've just come back from the manx classic - approx 200 Pre65 bikes and 60 twinshocks. No scrutineering and no complaints from anyone about this or that being fitted to any bike. Everyone happy.

 

I've ridden Northern British Bike championship rounds - over 100 entries, no scrutineering, no complaints from anyone about machine eligibility. What's the problem?

 

Sections in the Miller series are NOT unsuitable and I get fed up reading comments that they are from people who never ride in it. Look at the results from this year and class winners on the easier route, including rigids have been in single figures. How can that be too hard or unsuitable? I also hear it said that the sections are now geared towards twinshocks which is again not true, it's rubbish and also a joke as the modified Pre65 bikes are far better than any 70s twinshock. My 1972 standard Sherpa against a modern James or Bantam or Cub? Which do you think is more competitive... It's true that on the harder route one or two of the events can have had some tight (too tight) sections but some of us have pointed out constructively to the organisers that those type of sections aren't necessary or desired

 

Having ridden both Miller and Northern British bike rounds for several years, I can say from experience that on some occasions the British Bike rounds have been harder than Miller rounds, yet they regularly attract 100 plus entries of British bikes. So why don't a reasonable percentage of those riders compete in some or all of the Miller rounds as well, as in most events the section severity is of a similar standard. Perhaps because they believe some of the claptrap written on the net that the Miller series is now suitable only for twinshocks.

 

I submitted my suggestions as to how I thought the Miller series should progress and it included twinshocks. I think it would be a great shame if it excluded them from the series in the future. Twinshocks have always been the poor relations when it comes to national series. Pre65 already has several dedicated events - Northern British Bike championship, BMCA series in the Midlands, Pre65 Scottish (4 speed Bultacos excepted....) Manx Classic (yes it has a small number of twinshocks but it is still a mainly Pre65 event and which uses twinshocks as section scrubbers) There may also be a Pre65 only series in the southwest, I can't remember.

 

What have twinshocks got in terms of a national series? Nothing. The KIA is not a twinshock championship, it also has classes for Pre65 (yet another series they can take part in...) and air-cooled monos. It's also not road based so if twinshocks lose the Miller series they have no road based events to compete in.

 

Personally I don't see much wrong with the Miller series and don't understand why it is losing numbers when the Northern Brit Bike series enjoys big entries using sections of a similar standard. I think a couple of revisions to the class structure would be all that was needed to get some interest back.

[davetom]

The Talmag is like the Banbury Run, where bikes come out the woodwork specifically for that event. Why not organise a similar event and advertise it as being to Talmag rules, and wait for the entries to come flooding in ?

Having all these new groups and sub-groups so that you can ride this ex-works bike you've inherited seems like a lot of hassle, when by your own admittance you rarely ride anyway? What next, if someone turns up who's ten years younger than you , will you make him ride a different subset so that it's all 'fair '?

You've said on here before that your bike has alloy rims, so does that put you in 'Britshocks Modified A4' or whatever, or don't rims count ?

[woody]

HI Woody,

 

 

Yes, dealing with this issue is important.  Because people still want to ride original bikes fairly, like it or not. Plus of course, the pre65/SM series has been decimated of original bikes, and now all bikes.

 

 

You're again taking the issue away from what is responsible for the decreasing entries in the Miller series, which is what the topic is supposed to be about

 

It has nothing to do with eligibility rules. The Northern series, the Manx, these both run to the same criteria as the Miller series. they both have a huge range of machines taking part including rigids. No--one moans about the mix of modified and near original bikes, or the lack of scrutineering and they return year after year

 

This topic has been done to death, if you want to start a series for standard bikes and put modified bikes in a modified class then that's fine, go ahead and start one up. That is not what the Miller series is now about and if it goes back to excluding twinshocks I think it will be a great shame