Sammy Miller Series 2017 - Proposed Changes

[collyolly]

I do not think there is a problem with twin shocks in the S.M. series, as has been said many times above a lightly modified pre 65 ( yes you read correct, modified, after all it's only a frame and forks with an engine, the rest is basically cosmetic ) has no disadvantage and often is better.

Even the class system does not need major changes, I believe just a simple correction of the section allocation to give a larger spread of difficulty to match the riders ability and bike. (Effectively 3 routes rather than the current 2 as per last weekends SWCTA )

It's all down to the 'Clerk of course' , make it too hard and the big bikes suffer make it too easy and why travel for 5 hours for a wobble round.

[woody]

HI CollyOlly,

 

 

That is another idea, put all of the modifieds in with the twinshocks, then the machinery is fair and so the sport is fair, you can then keep the twinshocks, as you say, keep the originals and keep the modifieds.  I think at one of the last events I saw (was it a KIA one, cant remember), a very heavily modified Ariel easily won the twinshock course anyway (on second thought, perhaps you are then going to upset the original twinshock riders!).

 

All the best, TTSpud

 

That's right yes, it would be really fair to put a 1970 standard Bultaco Montesa or Ossa up against a modified Cub / James / Bantam

 

But that obviously isn't an issue as you have no interest in twinshocks

 

I have nothing against a class for standard machines but what you keep failing to acknowledge is that there is going to be a real problem scrutineering the bikes and deciding which is in the correct class. The last two Northern rounds have had around 120 entries. If a club can even find someone with the knowledge that is willing to do the job, when exactly are they supposed to do it? Before the trial? If it took just 2 minutes on average to do one bike that's four hours that someone has to spend checking bikes. Add on time for dispute and discussion and that's how long?

 

Event organisers have their hands full dealing with all of the other issues involved in running a road trial and getting the event underway without having the extra burden of dealing with that. Will the ACU provide a dedicated examiner to travel to each event?

 

You're citing a problem that doesn't exist as the reason for the Miller series 'failing'. I've pointed out two other series run to the same criteria where eligibility clearly isn't an issue as neither of them have riders moaning about the fact that they both have standard and modified machines running together and no scrutineering. Where are these riders you mention?

[john collins]

Bloody hell guys !

 

The only thing I hope I have definitely achieved is that it is very apparent that there are different views

 

If you look back at my very first email - I asked if someone could co-ordinate the views on various classes  and give us a list or starting point.  You will note I put " good luck with that " ,  I was not being sarcastic ( well perhaps I was a bit)   but many years of experience  has shown how difficult it is

 

One think I hope some of you may understand ( some never will  as their knowledge of ho it all works is deficient to say least)  is that an ACU C/tee of 8 have always struggled to sort all this,  just as many of you are obvious now doing

 

The posts arrive at no conclusion  - and I suggest it was unfair at outset of those to slag us off, when it is now obvious that there will never be agreement- we just have to try things , and that does not always work, hence the attempt to review

 

A few other points - I get mightily peed off with the constant reference to te ACU should do this or that.  Some of you may believe it is some huge corporate body or something - it is not,  it is  guys  , trying to do their best across board.     Any of you can apply to join and do your bit just as the 8 do

 

We do not get paid ,  we give up a days work to attend meetings and spend many many hours a week trawling through emails and problems and disputes and most importantly trying to ensure that the sport carries on with all the outside pressure it faces  - so no more slagging off please , constructive comments, fine, constructive criticism fine ,  but remember  the ACU is us - all of us. Anyone in a Club/ Centre, rider or organiser.    The clue is in the last letter Union  ( all of us) 

 

Now a few points to get back to real world - some have made very good comments on some of these

 

The organisers have a whole load of things to do as anyone who has organised knows. I have already covered this.  

 

They are very unlikely to be able to set up some sort of MOT facility and check all the eligibility that some would like a la Classic TT - it just ain't going to happen

 

Equally ,  there is very little chance of the machine examiner being to accurately establish what is   62, 63, 64 , 65 and so on - these bods are not not out there.  They are at home writing about it

 

So, of course there can be some eligibility factors . In past Twinshocks, drum brakes, carb, for diameter have ben used in past. But they will be limited UNLESS AN EXPERT  OE EXPERT  CAN BE FOUND TO GO AROUND ALL ROUNDS _ AND CHECK

 

This is exactly what is SUPPOSED to happen at thus years  Vintage ISDE in Spain . There is a strict criteria format and in principle there will be " Expert checkers" and if machines are not eligible, it is back in van and head for border ( we will see if that works?) 

 

As far as we are concerned I am far from sure that in then real world riders actually want that , but even if they do how can it be achieved ?

 

Next, a few have probably hit nail on head and stated that if sections are correct, and suitable for classes whatever they may be, the problem is reduced. Absolutely spot on

 

BUT - Organisers vary and always will.  No-one sets out to cock it up,  but is does occasionally happen

 

What do we do then - sack them ?   Not possible they are volunteers in first place doing it for love of sport 

 

Not give them a round again - possible, but that results in extremely reduced events and please remember that always always,   for everyone who thinks a round that someone things was too hard, too tight, too long, too short,  there will be others thinking it too easy, not tight enough, too short  etc

 

It is not an exact science

 

From what I have seen and read in surveys ( and they were a bit like I  have just said - alternate views mostly) 

 

Some want a return to the British Bike era - ie original concept and leave modern twinshocks go elsewhere 

 

Some want to retain Twinshocks and have classes for them

 

Some one all mixed in and allow course sections to sort out

 

Some want harder sections for better riders

 

Some want strict machine eligibility rules

 

Some want little or no eligibilty rules - "ride what you brung" 

 

Some want classes divided up according to age of riders rather than machines

 

Some want all Off road

 

Some want all On road

 

Many want a mixture

 

So it goes on  - thanks for efforts  ( I do mean that )       C/tee will now try to  start with an fresh piece of paper and come up with something BUT we will still need organisers

 

 

I have a return trip to Bradford now to try to discuss next years World Trial with FIM representatives - should be easy after this  !!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[woody]

Try and be pragmatic about that standard HT5. If someone was 20 and riding one of those in say 1960 they are now 76 years old. Most will be older. Do you still think they could manage one of those or is a nice lightweight modernised bike going to keep them in the sport longer.

 

Anyone riding one of those at the outset of the classic scene, before the modernising started, is now also going to be the same age, so the same applies. They can retire from the sport or ride a modernised lightweight bike

 

Younger riders, or very few of them, are not going to be interested in riding something like that. They want to ride more interesting and challenging sections, not up a green lane with a few bumps or up and down a few grassy banks. How are you going to get 100 plus entries of riders riding that type of bike?

 

You also continue to avoid the question of why the Northern series and Manx classic attract massive entries with a mix of bikes with no scrutineering to separate standard or modernised bikes. By your reasoning, these two series should have failed also

[collyolly]

I believe I have the answer to the 'Original and unmodified' bikes competing on a level playing field in a national championship such as the Sammy Miller series.

All it needs is an enthusiastic co-ordinator who is prepared to set up the process and run it.

The system would run as follows

1/. Advertise a new series for original bikes to be run alongside the existing competition

2/. Any competitor wishing to compete in this series forwards their details to the co-ordinator using a standard application form as per pre 65 Scottish, this will cover all necessary aspects of the machine including a documenting set of photos

3/ A list of registered riders and machines would be circulated to all interested parties ( little chance of fiddle bikes being used if there is a group of interested competitors involved in the monitoring )

4/ After each event the results will be forwarded to the Originals Co-ordinator who will then pick out the registered riders and prepare their results sheet and keep the championship table up-dated

The above gives no extra work to the trials organisers, no scrutinering is required as it is done in advance and if modifications are seen and reported the rider can be removed from the series.

Obviously this is a simplification of the necessary work involved but it does I believe solve all of this groups problems, just got to get it started !

[petorius]

As someone that knows very little about this topic and at huge risk of showing my ignorance is there any merit in reasoning that the road riding element is partly reponsible for the low numbers. From my understanding the Talmag is an off road event and if they aim is to attract younger riders i suspect not so many have road licences and also many potential bikes that could be riden are staying in sheds as they are not road registered.

[davetom]

I have no problem with good natured debate, but there's something about the general tone of your posts that makes me nauseous. For that reason I shall refrain from posting on any more of these 'state of pre 65' threads

[collyolly]

My previous post with regard to help sort out the 'originals' fair competition situation ( which only TTSpud appears to believe exists ) was really aimed at giving him the opportunity to jump in and give something to the sport and be recognised for it.

Instead of taking the initiative and putting himself forward he appears to have twisted my suggestion round and still puts the work onto the trials organisers on the day, this will never happen, in fact if that was the situation suggested by the ACU for the S.M. series I imagine organisers would rather not get involved.

Now in today's post it transpires that he does not even ride in the S.M. series so why is he involving himself in the potential changes, I have ridden my pre-unit in the series on the hard route and must say that the events I have competed in have been superb.

Now to the really weird bit, in the last post a clip of 1950's trials can be viewed, very interesting but totally irrelevant to the discussion, the whole passage about huge trials entries (450, really ? when and where was that and would you want to sit in that queue ? ) huge sections , going down the road to find another gate with another load of huge sections, what is being discussed here is certainly not the trials I want to get involved in or have ever heard about and I have been actively riding for 40 years.

I hope the S.M. series continues, with a few simple tweeks I think it will and I look forward to riding it not talking about it !

[collyolly]

The earlier question by Petorius is probably spot on, the road aspect is certainly a major factor which is why I imagine a way forward would be to include some off road only trials in the series, it would certainly highlight the problem if those trials got larger entries.

Down here in the South east there are no road trials at all, so if you want to have a go at the S.M. or Scottish you have to go out and get road legal otherwise you could just continue to ride most weekends off road only.

The younger competitor down here (and that means probably anyone under 40 ) does not I imagine have a road licence as the process was tightened up and if you do not ride a bike to work you would certainly not need one for trials.

Up north the situation may be different, perhaps they ride road trials as a norm but not down here

[davetom]

Road Trials = Insurance, which means up to date V5, MOT, licence etc. If that's the only road trial on your calendar, it adds quite a cost.

Over and out.

[collyolly]

Hello TTSpud

Have you been to watch a S.M. trial ?

I have ridden the Talmag for the last few years and I can assure you the sections are not a lot different, any difference is down to the sandy ground, the sections are not any easier or longer. (Easy and hard route)

I ride a modified big pre unit on the harder route at S.M. trials and as my previous post I feel some of the sections are now getting a bit too much for me which is why I have proposed the third 50/50 style route.

I rode the Talmag a couple of years ago when it rained all day, that was a hard day out ! So bear in mind whatever the organisers lay out for us Mother Nature will still get involved.

[davetom]

The annoying thing for me is that I dont think the mood on this forum is in any way reflected on the ground. Fairness or otherwise isn't a subject of concern, with different age blokes riding different sized/ equipped bikes with varying skills

[metisse]

How can any serious trials rider not... have his motorcycle licence. I imagine many on here took their test on a trials bike.   Fantic 240 1982.

 

[davetom]

Spud ; C15 has standard engine and original frame with subframe mods as per back in the day.

Til recently I owned a completely original HT5, steel everything, but it weighed a ton, and was ok for parading but as I'm self employed, was concerned that if it ever fell on me, I'd never work again . Cheers, I'm off this topic now for life

[davetom]

Ha, nice one Spud. Sorry to burst your bubble but I did ride it in the mud at events. I'm not very competitive, which is useful at my skill level , so I chose a manageable bike that I could ride every week without getting hurt. My C15 was my version of Don Morleys in his book, call it highly modified but all the geometry is virtually the same, bar the subframe being lifted, which was done back in the day.The front frame has had all surplus lugs removed, again as back in the day . Rear hub is Rickman, not sure what front is but its heavier at 8lb than the usual Bantam hubs people use . My bike weighs the same as a competive 60s C15.

If I only wanted to ride one event a year, the HT would be perfect, it was a lovely looker, but I try and do 15-20 trials , hence the BSA. You ought to get out more yourself ?