on it Posted July 23, 2017 Report Share Posted July 23, 2017 (edited) ttspud I think you will find the ACU are doing it /clubs are doing it ,the problem is the rules are NOT as you want , Do you really believe making all pre 65s back to bog standard will increase entries ? who will have the knowledge to scrutineer these total original standard pre 65 bikes with old tyres,(theres your first problem a 55 yr old tyre ) Ride it as it is or put it on a plinth in a museum its your bike. Dont expect people want /will change there bikes to make yours competitive , I think you will find most series are failing as cost makes them restrictive not the rules , Just how long are the trials in you ideal world, seems to me there will be more time spend with the scrutineer and less time riding sections with the rules you want .Most classic/ historic scrutineering takes place the day before the event ! Edited July 24, 2017 by on it add more 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elliseng Posted July 24, 2017 Report Share Posted July 24, 2017 Some really interesting views above, as a younger generation interested in PRE 65 trials I can see the appeal to both sides. I am heavily involved in Classic Car Trials and we too have similar issues with vehicles being modified/modernised with fors & against continually causing upset. The only organisation I have experienced that have kept things in control are the VSCC (Vintage Sports Car Club). Amazingly they have kept rules enforcing period parts with no modern gizmos (no modern electrics etc) and there trials events are always over subscribed @ 100+ entries. You would imagine these events to be all softy softy but they are far from it using historic style sections giving they old cars a serious work out. The class structure is very simple (like Deryks original setup) and the cars are incredible. The cars are all log booked for eligibility before they can be used. Within the rules people still develop their cars to make them more competitive but this is all nice basic tinkering which makes for good fun........one major downside is the ever increasing value of the base vehicles Not saying this could be done retrospectively but food for thought.... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
on it Posted July 24, 2017 Report Share Posted July 24, 2017 4 minutes ago, elliseng said: Some really interesting views above, as a younger generation interested in PRE 65 trials I can see the appeal to both sides. I am heavily involved in Classic Car Trials and we too have similar issues with vehicles being modified/modernised with fors & against continually causing upset. The only organisation I have experienced that have kept things in control are the VSCC (Vintage Sports Car Club). Amazingly they have kept rules enforcing period parts with no modern gizmos (no modern electrics etc) and there trials events are always over subscribed @ 100+ entries. You would imagine these events to be all softy softy but they are far from it using historic style sections giving they old cars a serious work out. The class structure is very simple (like Deryks original setup) and the cars are incredible. The cars are all log booked for eligibility before they can be used. Within the rules people still develop their cars to make them more competitive but this is all nice basic tinkering which makes for good fun........one major downside is the ever increasing value of the base vehicles Not saying this could be done retrospectively but food for thought.... is any of this anything to do with OFF ROAD TRIALS motor cycles the problem ls ttspud is going to the wrong TRIALS he is turning up to off road trials he needs to go to classic trials like you have with your cars 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old trials fanatic Posted July 24, 2017 Report Share Posted July 24, 2017 Has anybody ever seen this mythical ttspud machine ? Be interesting to see the bike thats causing all the furore. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody Posted July 24, 2017 Report Share Posted July 24, 2017 And now the next round bites the dust as well. Mid Wales have cancelled theirs which was scheduled for this weekend. Around 14 entries was the last I heard How many clubs are going to want to put a round on next year with this level of interest? Doesn't bode well. Two rounds left this year with the Greensmith opting out of the series. Be interesting to see how many entries they attract. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon v8 Posted July 24, 2017 Report Share Posted July 24, 2017 That's not looking good, I hope the Greensmith goes ahead,I rode it for the first time last year and really enjoyed it. Be nice to ride it on my BSA if its back together in time... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody Posted July 24, 2017 Report Share Posted July 24, 2017 Tim has confirmed tonight that the Greensmith is definitely going ahead on15th October starting from the Farlow & Oreton Village hall in the Clee Hill area of Shropshire and as in previous years be suitable for all British & Twinshock classes including sidecars. So there you have it from the organiser - definitely on, just not part of the Classic championship 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elliseng Posted July 25, 2017 Report Share Posted July 25, 2017 23 hours ago, on it said: is any of this anything to do with OFF ROAD TRIALS motor cycles the problem ls ttspud is going to the wrong TRIALS he is turning up to off road trials he needs to go to classic trials like you have with your cars Yes this is OFF ROAD TRIALS, very much the same principle as a motorcycle trial. Some events using road miles linking observed sections, others are single venue. Some events are combined with motorcycles & sidecars. The sections are graded (distance climbed) for cars and standard 0,1,2,3,5 for bikes. The above wasn't really where I was heading...It was more that the VSCC have locked down the machine eligibility side of things using a logbook system and it hasn't reduced entry numbers. I'm on the fence either way was just throwing out some ideas as as youngster hoping to see the Pre 65 scene keeps going. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
on it Posted July 25, 2017 Report Share Posted July 25, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, elliseng said: Yes this is OFF ROAD TRIALS, very much the same principle as a motorcycle trial. Some events using road miles linking observed sections, others are single venue. Some events are combined with motorcycles & sidecars. The sections are graded (distance climbed) for cars and standard 0,1,2,3,5 for bikes. The above wasn't really where I was heading...It was more that the VSCC have locked down the machine eligibility side of things using a logbook system and it hasn't reduced entry numbers. I'm on the fence either way was just throwing out some ideas as as youngster hoping to see the Pre 65 scene keeps going. thanks for letting us know about these sort of trials. I think they are the sort of trials ttspud needs to be going to ticks ALL the boxes for him Edited July 25, 2017 by on it spelling 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ttspud Posted July 25, 2017 Report Share Posted July 25, 2017 (edited) Quote otf: Has anybody ever seen this mythical ttspud machine ? Be interesting to see the bike thats causing all the furore. Go a page back and you can see it, AJS 16C as the one pictured at the bottom with rerouted exhaust and modified oil tank (in other words the bike has not changed since back in the day). Quote on it: Do you really believe making all pre 65s back to bog standard will increase entries ? Obviously with so few original bikes left, no. Hence the 'sub-class' concept that changes nothing for modified bikes and incidentally re scrutineering the modifieds would not need scrutineering either. Obviously some form of validation/scrutineering would be need for originals but that could be done in many ways to ease pressure on the day. Given that there are so few originals, it would be a good step to take. Quote Quote on it: I think you will find the ACU are doing it Doing what, changing the rules/classes again? Edited July 25, 2017 by ttspud Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davetom Posted July 25, 2017 Report Share Posted July 25, 2017 Do you ride the Talmag on your Ajs ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
on it Posted July 25, 2017 Report Share Posted July 25, 2017 53 minutes ago, ttspud said: Go a page back and you can see it, AJS 16C as the one pictured at the bottom with rerouted exhaust and modified oil tank (in other words the bike has not changed since back in the day). Obviously with so few original bikes left, no. Hence the 'sub-class' concept that changes nothing for modified bikes and incidentally re scrutineering the modifieds would not need scrutineering either. Obviously some form of validation/scrutineering would be need for originals but that could be done in many ways to ease pressure on the day. Given that there are so few originals, it would be a good step to take. Doing what, changing the rules/classes again? If there so few originals left Why would the ACU & CLUBS go to all the extra bother for 1or 2 bikes extra in a entry , TELL US ttspud ,Will you -----ride every round of the championship, how scrutineering will be done ,if its the same as pictured then its NOT original "Rerouted exhaust and modified oil tank " its a modified pre 65 "start of the problem" ! round &round we go 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ttspud Posted July 25, 2017 Report Share Posted July 25, 2017 (edited) Quote If there so few originals left Why would the ACU & CLUBS go to all the extra bother for 1or 2 bikes extra in a entry , TELL US There is no extra bother, just add 'sub-class' to the entry form, no big deal there, and display that on the results. The scrutineering is a small issue at the events I go to given only the originals (the few) would require it and of course other means, if it brought bikes back in larger numbers (isnt that a good thing?), could be explored also to help prior to the day. Quote "Rerouted exhaust and modified oil tank " its a modified pre 65 "start of the problem" ! round &round we go So, draw the line somewhere else if you think it should be tighter than that, if you ride an original bike you are of course entitled to a different opinion (or perhaps you want a prestige sub-class). Probably best though to ask original riders (as in those that already ride to the original rules on original bikes) or draw the line where the original rules had it ie original frame, forks, engine, gearbox, hubs and ignition. The reason for including the rerouted exhaust etc is for the same reason, those were mods done in the day, as you see in the 1962 picture, mostly for practical reasons and were accepted in the original rules. Edited July 25, 2017 by ttspud Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b40rt Posted July 25, 2017 Report Share Posted July 25, 2017 ttspud sub class, problem solved. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
on it Posted July 26, 2017 Report Share Posted July 26, 2017 (edited) 12 hours ago, ttspud said: There is no extra bother, just add 'sub-class' to the entry form, no big deal there, and display that on the results. The scrutineering is a small issue at the events I go to given only the originals (the few) would require it and of course other means, if it brought bikes back in larger numbers (isnt that a good thing?), could be explored also to help prior to the day. So, draw the line somewhere else if you think it should be tighter than that, if you ride an original bike you are of course entitled to a different opinion (or perhaps you want a prestige sub-class). Probably best though to ask original riders (as in those that already ride to the original rules on original bikes) or draw the line where the original rules had it ie original frame, forks, engine, gearbox, hubs and ignition. The reason for including the rerouted exhaust etc is for the same reason, those were mods done in the day, as you see in the 1962 picture, mostly for practical reasons and were accepted in the original rules. Ask original riders ? they are in there 80s now "as in those that ride to the original rules on original bikes" SO WHY DONT YOU RIDE IN THAT CLASS ? they manage too WHY NOT YOU . YOUR the 1 HARPING on about , hard sections / not fair to ride against the modded bikes / NO ORIGINAL bike sub classes /need original bike scrutineering / I want class for ttspuds bike . & as for the "original rules " turn up ride ,the 1 course 1 set of flags ride as a nov/inter/ex & A trials tyre to be fitted that was it ! back in the day . yep draw the line leave it as it is it works ,bikes are out being ridden on a weekend, Do I care if i see a original 1962 or a new 2017 bike NO I go to ride my bike at a trial and do the best i can on it. What is the real problem here the bike or the rider ? . Nothing you have come up with is going to save a failing championship which is the topic ,What dose it boil down to ? the cost has to be, as there are trials/ riders /bikes ,but no entrys So commit to a championship (cheep motor sport ) the rest is not hotels /food /fuel /the miles on your motor / travel 5hrs 1way/ sort the bike for the next round /try to get bits/ cost of bits if found/time to do all that & fit in home life and work and we wonder why entrys drop off after a few rounds of championship ,I dont think it has anything to do with the rules its more to do with cost and time .Sad but no matter what the acu/clubs do its out of there hands if people dont put a entry in (so use it or loose it ) & Sad to say looks like championships are going to be a thing of the past Edited July 26, 2017 by on it add more 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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