dadof2 Posted September 2, 2016 Report Share Posted September 2, 2016 Quite some time ago I posted (and was ridiculed by some) on the advantages of a battery and programmable ignition spark profile. Now it seems most (if not all) trials bike manufacturers are fitting twin spark systems (requiring complex and expensive alternators) to improve performance and reduce emissions. Vertigo also have to have batteries, as did Ossa, after failure of none battery systems. Some Vertigo owners are having problems with EFI and ignition issues and judging by posts on TC the problem for the now ageing Ossas is proving unsurmountable for their owners to resolve. Surely it is time trials bike manufacturers moved into the 21st century and start fitting properly designed battery based systems with Standard OBD compatibility. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baldilocks Posted September 2, 2016 Report Share Posted September 2, 2016 Sorry I thought the future was a carb and points according to your previous posts ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonnyc21 Posted September 3, 2016 Report Share Posted September 3, 2016 Never had or needed a battery for my 4RT... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnyboxer Posted September 3, 2016 Report Share Posted September 3, 2016 Never had or needed a battery for my 4RT... Exactly - Honda have the time & money to get it right ..., first time Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baldilocks Posted September 3, 2016 Report Share Posted September 3, 2016 But is that why the tick over is 1800rpm? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2stroke4stroke Posted September 3, 2016 Report Share Posted September 3, 2016 (edited) Yes. But I have seen somewhere a mod to the generator to allow a lower tickover to be used. I think it involves spacing the coils at a different relationship to the magnet. School physics lessons are too far back now for me to recall how/why this would work. But I have not heard of anyone using the mod. If it was that simple I would have expected Honda to have done it. Edited September 3, 2016 by 2stroke4stroke Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnyboxer Posted September 3, 2016 Report Share Posted September 3, 2016 But is that why the tick over is 1800rpm? If it's too high, then you can slow the gearing down to compensate, like I did Experts can cope with 1600-1800 rpm & 10/41 gearing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baldilocks Posted September 3, 2016 Report Share Posted September 3, 2016 You can work round it but lower gearing would increase engine braking and use of second gear ? That rpm on a two stroke without engine braking would be more of a problem hence the battery? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dadof2 Posted September 3, 2016 Author Report Share Posted September 3, 2016 Sorry I thought the future was a carb and points according to your previous posts ? I prefer a carb and still think, taking all factors into account that it is the most appropriate method of fuelling an off road 2T. I note Beta have achieved Euro 4 with a Carb. Compared to electronic ignition points have a clear disadvantage as regards engine performance and routine maintenance, but if they go wrong they are easier and cheaper to diagnose and fix. The point of this topic is that, manufacturers having decided to fit EFI should do it properly. The Honda / Montesa EFI system was right for its time and the majority of its applications. That does not mean it is still the best system for an off road motorcycle, particularly when battery improvements are taken into account. I have a car with a lot of complex electronic components, most of which are hidden and extremely difficult to access. However for under £200 I can have a device that plugs in and tells me what is going on with all those systems, not only that but the same device can activate those system so I can be sure they are working. Also I can download a full manufacturers manual for about £12, by comparison the manuals supplied with trials bike are totally inadequate. Motorcycle manufacturers need to do better, both regards what they fit and the diagnostics information they supply. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnyboxer Posted September 3, 2016 Report Share Posted September 3, 2016 (edited) The point of this topic is that, manufacturers having decided to fit EFI should do it properly. The Honda / Montesa EFI system was right for its time and the majority of its applications. That does not mean it is still the best system for an off road motorcycle, particularly when battery improvements are taken into account. Also I can download a full manufacturers manual for about £12, by comparison the manuals supplied with trials bike are totally inadequate The Honda manual for the 4RT is brilliant - so you are incorrect on that score The Honda EFI for the 4RT is fit for purpose 11 years on & still doesn't need a battery In my book Honda got it right first time I don't care about 2 strokes as they don't interest me Honda brought it in for the 4RT in 2005 - but that wasn't the fully story They needed to meet global emissions targets on the thousands of small bikes it sells in remote areas Hence they need to move away from 4t carbs and pioneer a battery free EFI system for use in areas where they have no electric on sub 125cc bikes Edited September 3, 2016 by johnnyboxer 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonnyc21 Posted September 3, 2016 Report Share Posted September 3, 2016 (edited) Thanks Johnnyboxer, my feelings exactly. As for carbureted bikes I think their best chance to continue is to go to something like the smart-carb. Whith how well they work I would expect they are the best chance for keeping emissions in check and not needing EFI. My 2 cents. Edited September 3, 2016 by jonnyc21 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dadof2 Posted September 3, 2016 Author Report Share Posted September 3, 2016 The Honda manuals supplied with the bikes are probably the best of any manufacturer, certainly better than those that come with 2Ts. However I was comparing the information available for trials bike with that available in a manufacturer level car manual. A typical Honda motorcycle is about A4 or A5 size and 15mm thick, The car manual I was comparing it to is 5 volumes, A4 height but wider and totalling about 300mm thick. The honda EFI & ignition systems generally work OK but electronics and combustion technology has moved on a lot in 11 years. For both Honda and the 2Ts my criticism is the lack of information and OBD compatibility for when they do not work, not a criticism of the systems when they are working. Honda are a very strange company, generally very high quality but at the same time they have an ideological addiction to 4T that is bordering on insanity. Remember the NR 500? Why go to the bother of developing complex 4T engines with EFI when other manufacturers can meet the same objectives with 2Ts with simple crank case pulse pumped FI. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnyboxer Posted September 4, 2016 Report Share Posted September 4, 2016 (edited) The Honda manuals supplied with the bikes are probably the best of any manufacturer, certainly better than those that come with 2Ts. However I was comparing the information available for trials bike with that available in a manufacturer level car manual. A typical Honda motorcycle is about A4 or A5 size and 15mm thick, The car manual I was comparing it to is 5 volumes, A4 height but wider and totalling about 300mm thick. The honda EFI and ignition systems generally work OK but electronics and combustion technology has moved on a lot in 11 years. For both Honda and the 2Ts my criticism is the lack of information and OBD compatibility for when they do not work, not a criticism of the systems when they are working. Honda are a very strange company, generally very high quality but at the same time they have an ideological addiction to 4T that is bordering on insanity. Remember the NR 500? Why go to the bother of developing complex 4T engines with EFI when other manufacturers can meet the same objectives with 2Ts with simple crank case pulse pumped FI. Because Honda can & it's to do with Honda pride in JapanThey believe (rightly or wrongly) that 2t has no place in a modern world - hence the move to 4t in all sectors - including marine & garden I have all their 4t garden stuff - strimmer and hedge cutter and it's light years in front of Stihl to use & who are the dominant 2t force in that sector and continue to pursue 2t Honda don't like diesels but market force drove them to produce one - so what did they do ? They made one of the quietest and efficient Diesel engines in the sector from scratch I only buy Honda products from garden to car to bikes as they are the world leaders in engine design and unlike many other automotive companies they design & build their own engines Apart from Honda - I also buy Toyota who do the same as Honda - but Honda don't make a van or a 4x4 pickup for me to buy Edited September 4, 2016 by johnnyboxer 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
breagh Posted September 4, 2016 Report Share Posted September 4, 2016 Even the old sheet of paper "manual" supplied with Fantics was too much for me. If someone gave me a proper manual I would need a lie down. Probably a Scottish thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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