125 National Championship

[mich lin]

Craig, hope this renews your faith in the Beave!

The arguments against an American 125cc National Championship seems to be two fold and very weak. First that HRC/Montesa does not have a bike, so we can't have an American 125cc Championship without them. Hey, Honda could build a bike faster than anyone if they really wanted too. Then somebody may cheat is the other agument I've read.

My reposne would be, do the Europeans cheat in the 125cc class? We have not heard any complaints from the European Championship or 125cc World Championship about building bigger bikes and sneaking them into the 125cc championships.

My view is simply, anyone who cheats is only cheating themselves! Face it, the riders would simply police themselves. If anyone appeared to have a ton more power than the rest of the riders, they would be protested, torn down and checked. It would make great press!

The importers would control this, after all it's in their best interest because it's their best riders who would win the trial and 125cc national title. Fear of cheating is about the weakest excuse I've ever heard for not wanting a 125cc Nationl title. I believe that trials riders are about the most honest people on the planet!

Fear of possible cheating that may never happen, should have very little weight in the discussion on how do we bring US riders up to international standards. To fail to follow the patern and rules of the rest of the world is much more expensive to an American hopeful world champion than fear of somebody possibly cheating.

[alan bechard]

Well, I will try this, with trepidation.

In a clear concise manner, what are the "Pro's" of the 125 class?

[nigel dabster]

If it were a Junior or youth class to "align" with europe I could see the point, or if there is real demand try it experimental for a year, but as Al says why?

[mich lin]

Nigel, your right of course, a US 125cc Championship would be designed to align ourselves with European standards.

Riding with you guys is the only sure path for success for anyone hoping for a future World Championship. Sadly an American rider cannot ride the European Championship, which has been the traditional stepping stone for a World Championship in the past.

Without that European Championship step available to us, we had no clear route for a progression to the World Championship for our riders and few options. The creation of the new 125cc World Title made for the first time in years, that clear route to the big bike championship for us. We Americans need to take full advantage of that opening by the FIM if we want a winning TDN team in the A division or another World Champion from the USA.

Consider, when American riders like Smage or Webb compete on full size bikes at the US nationals they get used to all that power. Then if they decide to ride a world round, they must drop back to a 125cc machine to compete on even harder sections against Europe's best youngsters on a tidler bike. Which is a huge disadvantage for them because they are not used to the 125cc power or have they learned how to set them up to their best advantage.

If some believe that our young riders are better off on full size bikes then consider this. The European riders will have had several seasons of 125cc world championship competition and seasoning before our young riders even get into the game. The European youngsters will have picked up factory support, mentorship and will have huge momentum before our youngsters even get into the game.

The only sure way to give our riders an honest shot at the Europe's best is to have them train and prepare on the exact same bikes as they are on. Then have the best of them jump into 125cc world championship competition as soon as possible.

Otherwise we can expect the same poor results from our riders for a long time to come at the World Championship and A division at the TDN.

[nigel dabster]

You've started already Lane I'm sure I explained before yes a rider from outside Europe can compete in the 125 championship of europe, just don't count in the championship.

This championship is for 14 to 16 year olds and run over 3 rounds during the summer months.

Apart from that its the same for all as far as I can see, what you need is that youth in the usa are limited to 125cc until they are 18.

There are very few youths on full factory contracts.

[city trials]

There are very few youths on full factory contracts.

Are any of the few youths on full factory contracts from the United States?

[mich lin]

Nigel, your right about the 125cc European championship, our lads can ride but they cannot figure into the results. That's always been the "Catch 22" for us. Who would support a rider who cannot figure into the results? Nobody!

The new 125cc world championship however is perfect for a North American, Aussi or any other non-European riders to bust onto the world trials scene. The door has now been opened by the FIM for us to make a world comeback. Our job as a country is to simply leverage that oppertunity to our best advantage.

It's self evident that the best possible way to do that is for our most gifted youngsters to train for the 125cc World Title. Get to Europe as soon as possible and score world championship points toward that title.

[alan bechard]

What stops them from training and competing on the 125 now if you feel that is an advantage?

Honestly, realisticly, How many American kids are going to go compete the European 125 championship? 2 I would think, 3 or 4 Plausibly, I would be amazed if 5 competed it in any particular year.

I would think, as I believe Ishy has said elsewhere, that if I felt my son or daughter would benefit from riding only a 125, that is what I would keep them on.

I think it best to leave the class "Open" to get as many possible competitors in the class as possible. I believe that the challenge, camraderie, whatever it is that comes with having more participation outweighs any possible benefits to the 2 or 3 potential riders that would compete in Europe. The folks that will compete at that level, will rise to the challenge and make the right decisions for their advancement without manipulation of the classes.

[hensley]

alan, your last comment seems to me to be right on the money. Im confused about all this 125 talk anyway. Would this include the youth nationals? Some of us have only the time or money for one national or maybe the youth nationals. If one of these less serious youth has a unfair advantage with a 200 or full size bike and pushes a 125 bound for europe rider wouldnt that be more competion and a good thing.

[mich lin]

Thanks for the imput men but look to our international results! We really have very little impact on the World Championship. Now if you don't care about another American World champion or a winning TDN team, then fine. Enjoy all the clubmen and sportsmen events you can ride. Not everyone can play in the Superbowl or a PRO baseball team but you can have fun watching it on TV.

Why can't we in the USA create a WIN/WIN situation for all our kids? One that provides that fun atmosphere for the riders who have no desire to excel at the sport. Yet creates that clear path for those hoping for a world title?

I've been told stait from the very top of the NATC that they do indeed want to put our TDN team in a better position. To have those better results, our best and brightest youngsters need to play by the same rules as the Europeans. Then ride with them as much as possible and have good results if they ever hope for factory support to cover travel expenses.

Now the 125cc bike is for sure a disadvantage for Cody Webb or Smage when they compete against riders on 200cc, 250cc or perhaps even 290cc bikes at a US National. That's the obvious point and why they choose big bikes competing here.

They find themselves in that in between grey area being from the United States, their big bikes are a disadvantage when they go to contest the world championship because their style depends on full powered bikes, yet they would be hurting their performance at a US national if they choose to compete on the little bike.

This puts these fine young riders at a huge disadvantage against the Europeans their same age. This point cannot be argued, it's just the facts.

What can be discussed is will we have the will power and courage to create a US series that is win/win? One that provides for the sportsmen youth riders and one that prepares our future TDN team and possible world champions?

[bikespace]

What can be discussed is will we have the will power and courage to create a US series that is win/win? One that provides for the sportsmen youth riders and one that prepares our future TDN team and possible world champions?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That could be reworded:

"Who is brave enough to agree with me?"

You have some valid points, but you dropped below the bar on that one.

If one or two of your boys really wanted to compete in Europe and progress to the World scene, I reckon they could put themselves on a pedestal by competing in their own national championship on a 125. I don't know, but I reckon someone like Wiggy could put up a good fight against the US boys on their bigger bikes even riding his 125. If your boys are serious about the world scene then maybe that would prove it to the factories.

[alan bechard]

So, as I play along I find myself more confused......

What class would it be? Pro, Expert, ES, Support, High school that would have the 125 line?

As I do not believe Cody and Patrick (the 2 that you mentioned) are competing in the same class at present. (Craig, correct me if I am wrong) Are you suggesting that there be a 125 class in each class?

I guess, in ten words or less, could you tell me what class this 125 thing is supposed to be for and an example of some riders who would compete in it?

[mich lin]

Bikespace, I agree with you, Wiggy is doing a fantastic job. Should be world champ someday and I can't wait to see him ride in person.

Sorry if my comment seemed below the bar, it's sort of like an ACU politics thing, only American Style. There is fear of change when it comes to our national organizing body! I'm simply addressing that fear, something that may seem below the bar to someone from Britan. Sorry for the dirty laundry! I'll try to keep it out of site from now on.

We also lack a national pride and fighting sprit for some reason, when it comes to supporting our TDN team and individual riders into the world championship. Something you Brits never seem to suffer from, you guys fly the Union Jack really strong and cheer on your world team riders with great enthusiasm. That amazing rider support I can only look at and admire. Hope you don't see this as also being below the bar?

Hensley, at the younth nationals, it wouldn't make one bit of differnce to me what size bike anyone rode. If a lad started winning, he would get noticed on any size bike.

Realize however that when he became flushed with success and wanted to come and ride at the world round, he would have to do it on a 125cc bike. If he was not used to that power delivery on those much harder world sections, he would be at a huge disadvantage. So it's best to get any rider on a 125cc bike as soon as possible if they intend to ride world rounds from as early an age as possible.

If they don't intend to ride up to the top levels, what differnce does it make the size of bike a kid rides.

[nigel dabster]

I see where you are coming from and to some degree the ACU dithering has affected some of the top youth riders in the UK.

France and Spain (I'm pretty sure) have followed the FIM lead insomuch as any rider under 18 years old should ride no more than a 125. Alexz Wigg and Ross Danby have stuck on the 125's exclusively this year and I think have benefitted from their choice, Alexz in winning (for the second year running) the Youth European title (14 to 16 only 125cc allowed) and Ross who has had some terrific results including a podium in the youth WTC (16 to 18)at hawkstone. Sam Haslam has opted to ride mainly a 250 and the swap to a 125cc has not been that succesful considering his ability/results. I believe that Ross and Alexz and to a less extent Lee Sampson have taken a longer term view that to be successful at World level they cannot ride a 250 till 18 so a 125 is the bike to be on till then.They both have a couple of years to go before they are 18.By that time they will benefit from the riding techniques and effort they have to put in to get the 125's to do as much as the smaller bikes can do.

Maybe?

[mich lin]

Alan, all the details were in the 125cc national championship proposal presented at the last NATC meeting. Here's a thumbnail review of that proposal if your not up to speed.

125cc national riders contest the Sportsmen line.

The best scoring riders in the class transfer to afternoon exhibition sections, you can call them the finals if you like. Similar to the El Trial if you have ever been to that event, only not everyone gets to ride in the finals. Only the best of the best.

The finals are on sections of similar difficulty to the European Championship or 125cc World championship. Remember however they are only ridden by the best in class, the rest of the 125cc field become part of the gallery along with the rest of the sportsmen riders, spectators and non transferring Pro riders.

I can see how you can get confused if you have not seen the 3 proposals presented to overhaul the Pro class, Women's class and bringing a 125cc class to the national championship.

If you would like I could start treds about the Pro and Women's championship proposals? All three worked together! They protected the fantastic sportsmen age groups, yet at the same time created an atmosphere where US youngsters who wanted to chase World Championship dreams, could, with much greater success.

I tend to agree with you Alan, more competition is better, just like you posted above. That was the foundation of these three proposals. They seem to be right in your line of thinking.