125 National Championship

[the artist formerly known as ish]

Lane was going to post, but when he saw all the **** flying he decided it was best to duck behind Debbie.

I don't see a post that anyone doesn't think the best bike for the young riders is a 125, those that plan/trying to compete against the Euro 125 riders would be best on one no doubt about it, competeing on one against other young riders on larger capacity machines in the nationals, will be closer to competeing against the Euro riders on 125.

Choice is a good thing.

Two best ever trials riders in the world, won thier first world rounds at age 17, what capacity machine were they on?

11th national, no not me, I may go along to the NATC meeting to put in for the event for Gary, but I want to ride.

I also wouldn't speak against a 125 class if they wanted one, it's nothing to do with me.

Just don't like being told that I should promote it.

My two boys are on a 50 and an 80, looks like they will be on em a long time, they have all the power they can handle at this time.

[mich lin]

Hey, Debbie just left so I'm unprotected again from posting, so here goes!

My kid is on a 125cc machine and will be until the FIM allows him on the 250. I mention that only because the question was asked of me. We also have a ton of 125cc bikes here in SoCal for what it's worlth!

The organization of a world round is good business, if done right! Donner has turned a good profit and that profit bought the PITS trials club a nice peice of land for future use. Wow, more cash can be good for us is that message!

I imagine Ishy made some good dough organizaing his world round also, only he knows for sure but more power to him! The workman deserves a good payday! Anyone oraganizing trials like Ishy or Mr. Bill should have it be worth his while or they won't continue to do it. Love of sport only goes SOOOOOO FAR, then everything crashes to a halt without a payday.

The most sobering point here has been the observation that only 5 riders contested the whole US men's championship! Let me add only 3 women contested the whole ladies championship. I'd bet $10 bucks that at least as many would contest the US 125cc championship.

Nigel mirrored my feelings exactly with his overall view of the advantages of a 125cc national championship. I've simply never been able to express them as well in writing. He knows because he's seen the results in person, something we have not had the luxury of.

The topic of excellence and honesty was also brought up. Clearly the persuit of excellence has evaporated in NATC trials competition, I've maintained that was by design by Dr Wagner for a long time. This is not a slam of the man but simply another interesting observation like only 5 riders doing the US championship.

The facts are that the NATC series under Dr Wagner's plan has been a huge success acheiving the goals that they desired. 1) TO CREATE THE BEST SPORTSMEN COMPETITION IN THE WORLD 2) TO SURVIVE AS AN ORGANIZATION. In these two goals they have been an amazing success.

What were the costs though! Simple, they sacrificed the US Pro riders and future world champions from the USA for the developement of an amazing sportsmen class. I believe that Dr Wagner should be proud of this acheivement, nobody else anywhere in the world has been able to produce such a thriving sportsmen national championship system. Who benifited? Why the NATC members did!

They created a championship that they could compete in, have fun, win national titles for their age groups and recieve importer sponsorship for themselves and others who invested the time and energy into the NATC program.

I understand that the NATC would be VERY hesitant to change this program and put in danger the excellent system they have created for themselves. If Americans start to take an interest in the world championship again. The realality of 45, 50 or 60 year old riders with importer sponsorship may disappear leaving them to have to buy their own bikes and parts again.

Now this may be true if we think the PIE cannot grow bigger, so that everyone can have a slice. I believe that's the NATC's hidden fear, that they will lose what they have if the kids and Pro riders start getting more support from the importers and factories.

I view the economy as a growing pie! One that if something is excellent it grows and provides for all. Today I believe that the sprotsmen nationals are excellent, the Pro, women championship and what's needed for future world championship contenders is not done with the same excellence. Why, because maybe the NATC fears that the pie is small and they will lose thier piece if the give the kids a peice.

That in reality is the bottom line fear for the NATC and their resistance to change. Will the age group champions lose their importer support if attention is turned to the kids? The answer lies in this question, is the pie always the same size and more people will reduce the size of the pieces or does the pie grow with more people at the table?

Edited April 16, 2006 by Mich Lin

[the artist formerly known as ish]

I think it needs pointing out that the NATC membership, is and are the riders who are riding the Nationals, plus the organizers, and importers.

What you have is what the majority of those people want.

Now with adding a harder course ladies class, we have two ladies classes of two riders.

Add a 125 class, the same thing will happen, it won't attract more riders, just some from another class will ride that because it is now another trophy up for grabs.

As for the old boy taking away sponsorship $$$ from the young riders, I don't buy that, any youth who showed enough potential to be competitive against the Euro riders, would be better supported than them.

I'm quite surprised that we haven't seen more lad's from the UK competing in the US series.

Answer that question, Nigel, what percentages of this years expenses will be covered by sponsorship and what will come out of dads pocket, for Alex to ride the 06 season.

[nigel dabster]

I really don't know the exact figures but suffice to say that the launch of the SPEA award (1000 euros) to the best first year rider in the YWTC is a big aim this year.

[the artist formerly known as ish]

QUOTE(AS iow @ Apr 11 2006, 09:22 PM)

And who would pay for them to do that then

QUOTE(Nigel Dabster @ Apr 11 2006, 09:41 PM)

The same people that pay for Alexz sam lee and Ross (et al) is my guess........... mostly their parents.

I think you answered the question in another topic.

However, I think the US will be the place in the future, more land to ride on,

more sponsorship oportunities, just needs to get a few Euro riders earning a bob or two and more will follow.

Bit like the aftermarket trick alloy parts, one makes em, now every bugger and is dog is after a peice of the action, shame!! one might of earned a bit, but all of em will earn little if owt.

[mich lin]

Ishy, Nigel and everyone, we all agree that money fuels motorsports! It's tough to mount a local, national or world championship effort without support and cash. Been there and done that a bunch, so I'm no novice to that subject!

What is unique in the USA system is older men getting importer support! I doubt that in the UK or Spain we will find 45, 50 or 60 year old men getting sponsorship for a national championship. In that respect the USA is very unique in how the importers spred around their rider support.

I would tend to believe in nations like Spain, France, Italy, Japan and in GB the top championship riders and some up and coming youngsters would get all the sponsor support. While in the USA the over the hill gang recieve just as much or more support from the importers as the youngsters, which is very unique to American trials because of all the age class championships.

Don't blame me Ishy for the lack of participation in the US women's championship, Or their slide at the world championship. I've proposed a cure for that as well in my NATC proposal!

We now have one American girl riding the series, and two Canadians! I've been trying to make headway for the ladies for a number of years by proposing moving the ladies title to the Youth Championship. That would greatly increase the oppertunity for lady riders to be part of the US championship.

[mich lin]

On the topic of mid level European riders coming winnig the US championship. I'm all for it!

I have heard a lot of complaining however from the local fans on that topic. Let's be honest, Geoff would have a lot more titles if the two European riders had not participated in the US championship those few years. Some don't like that!

It does seem unfair that we allow them to participate in our national title but then they ban us from their national and European championship.

[atomant]

On the question of where the money comes from, I would agree with Dabster that it mostly comes from the parents however, it doesn’t have to be like that and in Ross's case we have raised financial support into the multiple thousands of pounds through various sponsorship routes.

In the old days it was only the very very best that got decent support from the machine importers/manufactures but today the situation is different. Ross rides for JST GasGas and Shirty has provided a pretty decent package which he shares out amongst a bigger group of riders these days, and this would normally place him as number one sponsor but that’s not the case now, he’s currently third with other sponsors providing the majority of the cash that’s getting him to all the world rounds and we are talking in the thousands of pounds here.

First and foremost, any youth rider no matter how good they are isn’t going anywhere without the 100% dedication/support from their parents which in the main is providing the bike, clothes, transport, fuel, shoulder to cry on etc etc and in Ross’s case this is no different to anyone else, but in my opinion, what’s needed is good business management of the riders on a commercial basis as they are a marketable item. Done well, this can raise decent sums of money and will fund a National or World campaign.

In your case in the US, instead of trying to get everyone onto 125's right now, get your best rider whoever that is, get him on a 125 and get him the best training/support/sponsorship that you can get and get him on the world stage.

If he does well, milk the publicity to death and it wouldnt surprise me to see the sport take off under your very noses.

IMHO

Picture courtesy of Trialsphotos.com

[alan bechard]

Hey NSAGM,

Check this out.

http://www.trialscentral.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=8484

Now just how absurd was what I said?

As to sponsorship, I have always told my kids they have a full, 100% sponsored ride, meals, travel, entry fee's bikes are all covered by www.awomanstouch.net

(Hanna does not find that near as funny as I do)

[no jive]

Lane you are absolutly right about the support the Senior riders get. After I won Senior 40 last year my phone rang off the hook. Offers of new bikes. I was on the Tonight Show and the David Letterman Show. I had to quite my day job.

MTV has signed me for a reality show. The follow me around the Nationals and film me. I basically trash motel rooms and hang out in strip clubs.

It is amazing how much support I get. A limo to go and practice. My head is swollen. And I dont have to wear spandix.

Thanks NATC now I can live like a rock star like I new I was.

Edited April 17, 2006 by No Jive

[nsaqam]

Alan, it's still absurd because even your link doesn't say, as you do, that everyone under 18 should be on an 80. The link recommends a youth make a progression through displacement classes. Good idea I think.

Mostly it's absurd because you don't believe it as stated many times in your posts. You've said our kids shouldn't be mandated to ride any specific displacement.

I think we should listen to and learn from our European friends. Their system has seemed to work fairly well to produce WTC championships.

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

[mich lin]

Clive, maybe we can party sometime when you come to Hollywood. Have your people call my people. I'm with Joni's! The Whiskey on sunset is a good place to party. I've got connections with one of the bands that plays there.

Buddy if your not getting rider support from the US importer? You need a new agent, a bunch of age group champions get the loan of bikes and other support from American importers.

Do you pay retail? Does Gary Hoover the 50 year old champ pay retail or buy bikes? I know Dr Wagner got the loan of one of the Marland Whaley "works" Hondas to ride RMTA and NATC events.

Making him one of the "elete" people in the world ever to compete on the 4 stroke Honda wonder bikes as a factory rider. Yet he was never a top Pro class rider but a senior sportsmen champion. Maybe you need a new agent?

Like I stated in another post, I'm not against sportsmen rider support. We do need to decide on what our view of the PIE will be. Can the US trials pie get bigger? Or must it be kept small like now?

I'm of the opinion that if the sport grows, it's better for the sportsmen, the US Pros and the kids coming up like Cody, Smage, Oldar and the rest. Increased bike sales is partly a product of more interest in trials, Americans in the world championship creates more for the press to write about of interest to the general Cycle News reader. Motorcyclists from other types of riding will always be our #1 draw for new trials riders.

At the US world round, Americans in the hunt also creates more American reader interest. nsaqam is a trials rider because of a world round! Would more American motorcycle enthusiasts following world trials, be better for the sport?

Sure, no doubt! But that can only happen with some organized effort! The proposal to the NATC made last year was a good start for that reintroduction of American's back onto the world scene. We simply need to comply with the standards that the FIM has clearly layed down for us.

Edited April 17, 2006 by Mich Lin

[mich lin]

Atom, amazing post and insight! I believe it's really healthy for the yanks to see the level that UK riders are thinking at. Sure cash will always be an issue for motorsports, that's the lifeblood of motorsports, cash.

Where the UK and USA differ is we are still arguing if it's good for our riders be in the game with you guys. While you are figuring out how to win.

That's quite a diffence!

[the artist formerly known as ish]

There is also the V8, V10, if you stick a prop on, it will fly, factor in the US.

TY 350 Mono for the American market, TY 250 mono for the Canadian and Euro market.

Beta 250 is more popular in the UK, I don't know for sure, but think the 270 is more popular here.

The little three banger diesel, is popular in Europe, also popular over here when used as a starter motor for the 7 1/2 liter beast.

[perce]

Funny that but in Fort William last weekend there was a party of Americans, their obsession was to drink / brew the strongest beer. Drinking 6 or 8 pints of normal beer & having a laugh with your mates for a few hours didn't really sink in with them at all.