mich lin Posted November 16, 2005 Author Report Share Posted November 16, 2005 Nigel, thanks for the imput! We are at a disadvantage here not being able to study riders bouncing back and forth or sticking with the 125cc bike. I take your observations as having some insights we are not able to make, Thank you! I do know that it was REALLY hard for Cody Webb to ajust to the 125cc bike for the US World round. He rode well but how much better would he have done if he was used to a 125cc machine instead of a 290? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alan bechard Posted November 17, 2005 Report Share Posted November 17, 2005 By your own proposal though, Cody would still not be riding a 125 because he is riding above a support line. Will Ibsen is riding above the support line. Patrick is riding above the support line. So what you are suggesting, is that these guys, move down to sections of less difficulty to compete against each other. I think you would find some opposition to this as well. And when the competitor goes back to his home turf in something other than a national, are they going to have to come up with a 125 class in their local event, or will he then need to ride a full size bike to be competitive.... thereby defeating exactly what you are trying to solve. And as to the previous things you say, Yes, it is below the bar. Do not try and play it off as being an American. "We also lack a national pride and fighting sprit for some reason", You need to move out of California and come hang out with me for a while. Do not run your mouth like you speak for everyone becuase you certainly do not. You put forth plans with big holes in them that are half baked and not fully thought out then everyone that disagrees with them you say they don't like kids or love Jesus and their feet smell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spinner Posted November 17, 2005 Report Share Posted November 17, 2005 (edited) Alan step back from the keyboard!!!! Breathe deedly!!! Feel better now?? The fact that everyone is so passionate about the state of trials, especially youth trials, in the USA is fantastic. I have been to the Youth Nationals the last 3 years an see great things coming in the future IF we find a way keep they interested and excited about riding!!!!!! I see Lane's point about the 125 class, it gives the younger riders a goal, a prize that seems reachable. How so, look at Cody's results the last 2 years in the 125 rounds that he rode, with an unfamiliar bike, without the trick parts and development, he had some fantastic results. No I don't agree with lane on everthing but we do need a more cohesive direction!!!!! We have to start somewhere, and the sooner the better. I know almost all of you posting in this have kids that are riding now and that you only want the best for them. Lane I'm glad your back, because agree with him or not you make people think!!!!!! We do need to think outside the box for once. Changes are needed on that we all somewhat agree, how soon they are made will directly effect the 10-14 year olds and how they progress through the ranks. Edited November 17, 2005 by spinner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alan bechard Posted November 17, 2005 Report Share Posted November 17, 2005 My short point is,,,,, Even if we made that class. I doubt people would ride it. And it opens a whole nother can of worms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mich lin Posted November 17, 2005 Author Report Share Posted November 17, 2005 Thanks spinner, Clarity IS more important than agreement in a discussion, I mean by that understanding where people are coming from. What their fears and points are! We can't always agree but indeed we can understand each other, be clear on their positions and think outside the box a little like you said. Then maybe take a little ACTION. Sadly in Cody's case, one of the riders Alan mentioned, it may be too late for him. I hope not but he's beginning to shows signs of stagnation in his progress for his age to be World Champion. Simply ,he may have peaked within the NATC program already, like all the other top American riders of the past 2 decades. My hope is to save riders like Smage and Oldar and give them a clear path the World Championship. I know it's not too late for them, they simply need a clear path. A 125cc national Championship is the start of that path to a world title because it puts our kids on the same machines as the next up and comig Europeans. It simply gives them a reason to stay on the little bikes with sponsorship and gives them time to contest the 125cc national title and 125cc World rounds without being forced to switch between a big and small bikes. Nigel made some greats points about what bike to pick and how it has had an impact on British lads. Simply put, our youngsters and their dads will have to make the same choice. Do they move to a 250cc or 290cc bike or stay on a 125cc to do better at the World Championship? Now if an American boy has no interest in being World Champion, let them ride any bike they please, we have loads of sportsmen classes for them but to be world champion, they need to ride 125cc for as long as required for FIM World Championship events. Today in the USA there is little reason to stay on a 125cc bike! Which is the point, a 125cc bike is proven to be better for a young rider if he wants to do the World Championship for several reasons, that really can't be disputed. A 125cc National title would give Americans a reason to stay back on the 125cc machine without fear of losing his sponsorship. The importers and factories would be interested in this class simply because it is the proven stepping stone for the future world champions. I simply want to put Americans in the World championship game again, hope that's clear! I also don't want to create a situation where anyone is forced to ride a 125cc machine in the USA if they don't want to. Hope that is also very clear. The way it is now, we simply don't have a choice between 125cc or a big bike to get to the top of American Trials. A rider simply must move up in displacement as soon as possible. The introduction of a 125cc national championship however would give anyone a good reason to stay with the FIM standards as long as they needed. It's simply a matter of giving our riders THE CHOICE! Which they don't have now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikespace Posted November 17, 2005 Report Share Posted November 17, 2005 I'm not sure how your proposal fits in with this requirement. It seems to over complicate things, and create an event where anyone can have a ride round a course in the morning where two thirds of the sections may not be suitable, then watch somebody else ride in the afternoon. Not sure we'd get too many entries in the UK for an event like that - may be different in US. If you want the 125 class, why over complicate the proposal, why not just propose a separate 125 class? That's a serious question, I'm not trying to split hairs, I haven't got many as it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigel dabster Posted November 17, 2005 Report Share Posted November 17, 2005 I think that is how the championship events are run presently, it is not a suggestion of waynes, but I could be wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the artist formerly known as ish Posted November 17, 2005 Report Share Posted November 17, 2005 What is funny about all this and goes with the out of the box thinker, both the FIM and NATC now run a base section with a series of designated gates for designated classes. Leave the gates in, remove the designated classes and let the rider choose which gates they attempt, add the fact they have to do it clean and you have a gate trial Is the natural evolution of trials towards gate trials, was Carl's out of the box thinking, just plain foresight ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mich lin Posted November 18, 2005 Author Report Share Posted November 18, 2005 bikespace, your instints were right, it's simply how the US nationals are run right now. We have 17 or so sportsmen classes that compete on the sportsmen course, with differnt gates for the Pro, Expert and Sportsmen expert riders on the same sections. Most of the NATC bills are paid by the sportsmen riders today, age groups starting now with the gradeschool class in 5 year increments through the 70 year old class. So the NATC will never give up the age system at the US nationals, they can't afford too. They pay the bills! The bulk of the entries at a national are the age groups with about 6 or 7 Pro class riders, with several of them being from Canada. Maybe another 6 or 7 Experts running through easier gates than the Pros. What we have now is about half the entry being on the podium in their age group, which our riders seem to like, lots of winners. So our sportsmen riders are served really well right now by the NATC / AMA national program. The only riders not really being helped is the Pro riders or the young hopefuls to the world championship. These proposals were simply an attempt to broden the program so that these riders would also be well served. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mich lin Posted November 18, 2005 Author Report Share Posted November 18, 2005 City Trials, I tend to think that the winner of the 125cc National Championship would be Andrew Oldar! Unless of course Smage or some other ringer stepped back into the game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mich lin Posted November 21, 2005 Author Report Share Posted November 21, 2005 If anyone thinks that cheating would be a problem! Consider that we have not heard of a single story out of Europe of a rider cheating in their 125cc class. Why would we think we would have a bigger problem of cheating in the USA? A simple solution to solve any disputes would be this. Any rider wishing to protest another rider can for a $300 protest bond. The disputed bike would be taken after the weekends events to one of the importers for a tear down with the press, riders and anyone else interested present. By the way, this makes for a fantastic press story and would be worth the effort just to make the papers more intersting. When it was settled that the bike was legal or illegal $150 dollars would go to the importers mechanic for his effort and gaskets. then the remainder of the cash would go to the winner of the dispute. Hey, they could tear down my bike after any event, I would love the $150 for extra gas money. Of course if the bike was illegal, the rider would be disqualified for the weekend losing the championship points for those weekends rounds. They could of course come back the next events! This is a clean and simple win/win approach to any protests for a 125cc class dispute, for either a national or world round. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sting32 Posted November 21, 2005 Report Share Posted November 21, 2005 (edited) Of course if the bike was illegal, the rider would be disqualified for the weekend losing the championship points for those weekends rounds. Edited November 22, 2005 by Sting32 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mich lin Posted November 22, 2005 Author Report Share Posted November 22, 2005 I see your point! Not sure what a trials engine is worth but it must cost about $2500 or more. Perhaps if the loser paid for the importer's mechcanic time! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sting32 Posted November 22, 2005 Report Share Posted November 22, 2005 (edited) I see your point! Edited November 22, 2005 by Sting32 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mich lin Posted November 22, 2005 Author Report Share Posted November 22, 2005 What worries me is the VN number of the engine. You cannot replace that. Also If someone could claim an engine for $300 bucks, why buy spare parts when you can claim an engine for 1/10 it's value? I'm not sure if a claiming rule would work when you cannot buy a trials engine in a junk yard like you can a small block chevy. I doubt anyone would cheat! To keep the critics happy however a protest system has to be thought up for the 125cc CLASS to pass the smell test. Now if we adopt a claimer rule, I'm buying one of the world round bike engines. To be trials practical, losing money if you lose the protest seems not a bad path to take here. Trials guys hate to lose money! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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