The Natc Pro Class Proposal

[mich lin]

To help bring Alan and others up to speed on the NATC proposals to revamp the nationals and enlarge the US Pro class, here's a thumbnail blueprint of that proposal.

Expert Sportsmen, Expert and Pro would be combined into one large class. Creating a much larger gene pool for the pros and more competition.

Pro sections would be a mix of 1/3 Expert Sportsmen level sections, 1/3 Expert sections and 1/3 Pro levels sections for the morning qualifier. Contested with the Sportsmen event like now with the splits for the Pros, the biggest change would be the need for only two lines in the sections instead of three like we use now. Which gives the organizers a little bit of a break.

The best 5 Pro riders on the morning qualifier course would transfer to the Pro finals consisting of 5 world class sections rode multiple times, El Trial style. The 125cc finals would also be run with them and consist of the best 5 qualifiers on the morning Sportsmen course. Ridden on the Pro final sections with differnt gates making them 125cc World Championship level sections like they do at the world championship.

The sportsmen, non transfering Pros and non transfering 125cc championship riders would become part of the gallery along with the rest of the spectators. While the top five Pros and top five 125cc riders fought it out in front of the croud for the top spots.

You can bet the the riders not making the top 5 transfer spots being forced to watch the other riders play, would be back next trial with a renewed effort to get into the game. Plus the riders in the top spots would have to learn to perform before a big croud, which puts added pressure on them and makes all of them better riders.

[the artist formerly known as ish]

Thanks spinner,  Clarity IS more important than agreement in a discussion, I mean by that understanding where people are coming from.  What their fears and points are!

We can't always agree but indeed we can understand each other, be clear on their positions

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree Lane, that is why you should state this proposal is yours passed on to another party to be presented at the NATC meeting, and not an NATC proposal to change the pro class as stated in this topic, and develop a 125 championship in another topic.

Also you should state the proposals were turned down by the ones actually doing the events at the NATC meeting.

While you compare what they do in Europe to what they do over here is all well and good, but!! people need to also know the club infrastructure in Europe has a youth base with club events and championships for those youth to participate regularly on a weekend, that isn't in place over here.

Also the type of section used over here is not the same! and favors the bigger bikes.

I am a fan of the little bikes and have competed on both four and two stroke 125 machines in the past few years, my choice.

On the pro class, how many times would a parent or rider pay to travel across the states to spend half the day watching an event they didn't qualify for and say sod this why bother going, yes the top few may step up their game enough to make sure they always qualified, world trials championship comes to mind, top five doing well! the rest cannon fodder.

If the world championship had an average entry of fifty riders/ event do you think they would be adding the support classes they are now ?

[mich lin]

Good questions Ishy! Let me see if I can address your observations?

Indeed the proposals were mine, not having been able to present them myself I'm not totally sure why they might have been rejected. I would have prefered to present their benifits myself but that was not possible.

Be aware that I only submitted them after being asked to provide a patern by the NATC head for what could be done be make our best riders more compeditive on a world stage.

Also I was asked not to use my own name but use the ATA as the presenter. Which I did, after their total rejections, I felt there was no harm in revealing that the proposals were mine or bringing their benifits or faults out into the community for discussion.

Lets be VERY clear, the non-transfering 125cc riders would ride the same course as all the rest of the sportsmen riders, so they would get plenty of riding and a full trial. The non-transfering Pros would also get as much riding as they do right now, only on a little easier course.

The finals would be bonus sections for the very best of the best in each of the Two Championship classes! These sections could be made world class, which is not possible now on the normal NATC national course, Otherwise the sections are too difficult for a lot of the entry.

So you see Ishy, nobody would be riding only half a trial. The idea is to create a Win / Win situation, the best Pros and best 125cc riders get world class sections in the finals. Which if we did that at a normal NATC national most of the entry would not enjoy the trial.

Rememer the sportsmen and the rest of the entry enjoy the same great events they now have. Only the best of the best get the extra additional secitons. This allows the non transfering 125cc and Pro riders have a chance to build up their skills and confidence on that easier course at their own pace. So someday they can transfer into the finals if they have the talent or they can simply drop back to the sportsmen ranks.

Next Question-

I tend to agree with you about the World Championship entries and their new support classes. The facts are simply both the World Championship and most National championships now have just a few entries. Which is sad!

I feel it's the introduction of the stop and hop rules that is the problem there. Look to the Scottish Six days, run with the classic rules, it's the most popular trial in the world. It turns away entries, yet everybody rides the same sections, from world champions to clubmen. Yet everybody is VERY happy! That's the reason for the low world championship entries, STOP AND HOP.

The 125cc World Championship for good or bad does allow non-Europeans for the first time to make an impact on the world championship scene. I doubt that the FIM or the continentals will allow us to return to the classic rules for the world championship, which would bring the big entries of the 1970s back again.

Your observations about the European clubs being more youth friendly are well taken! Can anything be done to fix that here in the USA? I tend to beleive that adding a 125cc national title would help create a youth friendly atmosphere.

[steve fracy]

Hello Gents:

From where I sit, as a father to an up and coming rider, I would absolutely love it if the proposal that Lane has put forward was put into place! That being said, I think that perhaps this discussion on here, plus maybe circulating some further info along to the major clubs so that they can inform their members as to the benfefits of it all may be in order! Lane, don't give up on this, please! I think that you may be onto something here. If this proposal is maybe looked at closer by a wider base of people accross North America, it might be more widely accepted and understood! There is no reason why this proposal or even a tweeked version of it, could not be re- proposed next year!!

Let's keep up the discussion!

Cheers, Steve

[trialsurfer]

Will the top pro riders be happy riding E and ES lines, I don't think they would, how can you progress when they only would ride 1/3 pro lines. With the lack of diff1culty in some of the events their progression is limited,with sections at local event difficulty in some cases.

On another note, they knew who proposed it!

[mich lin]

Trialsurfer, I like your question and comments. To answer you!

In the quest to bring up US riding levels, some easier sections are VERY important in a Pro national along with harder ones than we have now. We simply must do both!

Why? Because some riders do the hard stuff well but they can't keep their focus on the easier sections and drop stupid points. "I'm sure all of us relate to this problem?" All riders need to learn to do both, ride harder and easier sections at the same time, then if they mess up there needs to be a pack riders ready to pick them off. This forces them to stay sharp!

That's why we combine Sportsmen Expert, Expert and Pro together into one big class. It creates more riders in the mix, brings back great riders like Ray Peters into the Pros, who is still very dangerous on the easier sections. Then also brings in future champions like Smage faster and also makes him a danger to the top guys, keeping them more on their toes.

It puts fear into our best riders forcing them to improve, they know if they screw up they might fail to transfer into the finals, where things get really tougher than current NATC pro class sections. So, you see, the easier sections are just as important as harder ones to improve our riding levels.

We shall in the future include, some easier,some the same difficulty and some harder sections than we have now. A much wider spectum of sections is needed. Plus have a much larger and dynamic field of riders than now, putting more pressure on the best few riders. Everybody is forced to improve or simply they have the option of moving down to sportsmen!

The proposals I brought to the AMA / NATC, gave us the foremat for a bigger better field of riders, plus a sound progression that builds confidence for our best youngsters to move up much faster through the Pro ranks. Plus keep the top US riders much more on their toes forcing them to raise the bar to stay ahead.

Now if the NATC refuses to adopt a better program simply because they don't like the source. That simply shows a lack of respect to the American national riders and the AMA as a whole.

I could care less, about what the NATC thinks of me. I'm simply a long time trainer and coach who has had some success at trials. That experence allows me to see the roadblocks to the top of the world podium in our current national program that some can't !

What I do care about is putting US riders back on the World Podium! Maybe results can become more important than anything else? Then maybe the NATC will made the needed changes?

[mich lin]

Now trialsurfer, to answer your basic question, will the top pros be happy riding a few Expert Sportsmen sections and Expert sections?

The answer is NO, because it puts them in reach of the up and coming riders sooner and the old Pros like Ray Peters. It makes it much harder for them!

Which we want, the best Pros need to pay attention for longer peiords of time to get tougher in their heads to compete overseas. After all, top level trials is really 95% mental toughness.

What they will have to do is concentrate hard on the easier sections and not be lazy or make simple mistakes. Then put ground on the rest of the pack on the 1/3 of the sections that are now at the current US Pro level. Otherwise they will be in danger of not transfering to the finals!

In the finals, that's where the stops can be pulled out on the sections. Simply because we do not have to worry about the rest of the field being discouraged by the World level sections the best 5 will have to face, remember the rest of the pact becomes spectators. Which is good because they can always learn watching!

The final benifit for a combined Pro class is when an up and coming rider scores better in a section than say Geoff or another top Pro would. That could be on one of the easier sections! What that does is build confidence in that youngsters that allows him to believe that someday he can put it all together and beat Geoff or the other top contenders.

Without that confidence building element in play, we tend to have the same faces on top, trial after trial, year after year. The only way to build confidence in the youngsters is to allow them to beat the best in a section or two, then three or four, then in a whole trial.

Now that's how you build future Champions! Hope this answers the question why we need to combine all the classes and easier and harder sections, with a World Class final?

[trialsurfer]

When some of the events this year had winning scores in the single digits and one event won with a total score of 1, how much easier do you think they need to be?

[alan bechard]

So Lane, have you guys implemented this in ATA or whoever you ride with and how is it working out there?

For you guys following along at home. Put this a bit into perspective and put yourself in the picture.

Imagine if you will that you are an Advanced rider.

You drove 4 hours to the event. You now unload your bike and you are going to ride a 15 section two loop trials, 5 of the sections are novice lines, 5 are Intermediates and 5 are advanced level sections. Then if you did well, we are going to have you ride another 5 sections after this is over that are expert level sections (to push your level up) to determine the class winner......

Does that sound like fun too you?

Turn it around now, the guy that you have been coaxing into coming out riding is going to join you on the trip.. He rides those same 15 sections that you rode except he is at his level on the first 5, over his head and potentially hurt on the next 5 and looks at you as though you just sprouted horns and a third eye when you get to the final 5 sections. I am sure this was an enjoyable day for him...

Now, Lets figure you live next to me here in TN, and I have convinced you to drive 18 hours straight through with me to NY / TX you pick the locale,,,,, How do you think that will work?

Lane it did not fly because it did not pass the common sense test. I was told that it was presented, discussed briefly and moved on from as there were very apparent problems to those in attendance.

Implement it at the ATA, prove it a success and repropose it yourself to the NATC next round.

[sting32]

So Lane, have you guys implemented this in ATA or whoever you ride with and how is it working out there?

<snip>

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Alan, could you please think of the "nationals" as you would the playoffs for any other sport, would you not admit the number one seed gets an easy game, VS 12 seed? Yeah, a time or two at some point (give you there are flukes) best 2 teams usually play off for champ, right?

Again, why would everyone think the Club Level riders have to adopt this Nationals policy, local clubs produce usually Expert riders or better, that want or desire to be the cream of the crop competition ALA---> NATIONAL competition. This is not the Novice Riders, never has been AFAIK. Even the Utecups were for Semi expert or above was it not? (been a while for me going to one, and that was as spectator many years ago) yeah a Amature level rider could enter at his own peril...

And much like you have submitted if your kid is likely to compete at nationals in the 125cc class, you'd prolly be having him ride 125cc bikes, NO?

Yeah I can see your pooint, maybe there needs to be a NOVICE "nationals for the rest of us"? Where us novice amature and intermediat/advanced riders ride agains the rest of the country's nov-ama-int riders?

Sorry, but somehow, at this time that is NOT what is being discussed, least I dont think so, when we're talking about the Nationals?

[mich lin]

Trialsurfer

Perhaps the winning score would have been the same on the morning sections. Chances are the winner would have dropped his point or single digit points in one of the currnet Pro level sections, not the Expert ones.

With the addition of the 5 potentual world round sections for the finals, the scores should tend to be much higher. Without danger or discouragement to the rest of the Pro field. Overall the event should be much harder with the finals being 3 to 5 world level sections ridden 2 to3 times.

[mich lin]

Alan, I really don't think you can compare local events to a National Championship Pro program. Apples to oranges! At a national your attempting to train the TDN team for better success and building hopes for a future world champion.

At a local trial, your just out to have fun. It's like comparing the Yankees to a little league team!

Now if you want to know how well this has worked for the ATA, it's been great for over 30 years at the El Trial. We have even hosted current world champ Adam Raga at one of the events. Which he won by the way, hey, maybe we can take credit for him winning the world title?

If you want to compare a National Program to a local one, the Sportsmen nationals are a great success. They just can't build a winning TDN team or raise our top Pro riding levels. That's an undisputed fact.

If we want our riders to stay exactly where they are now on a world stage, doing nothing is for sure the right path to take. That's also an undisputed fact. To improve our Pros, we must change.

I'm open to any honest input on these proposals. We do need to keep the thought of building a winning TDN team as the main goal in any change in the US Pro Class and how to build our young up and coming riders into better competitors.

[trialsurfer]

With the current setup the ES and the EX lines ARE the training ground for the pro class, if the promoters stick to the 25% easy, 50% average and the 25% hard orchestration for the pro class even the retired pro riders can get through most of them. The key is getting the dedication from the lower class riders who show the ability to excel and getting someone or an organization to fund training. I know firsthand that with training the opportunity could be there for some riders that either by location or finances are at a disadvantage could make the climb to the top easier!

Two important things were decided on at the NATC meeting especially for the Pro class, the Gate system of marking sections, and the exclusion of minders from walking the sections with the riders. Both of them will make the job of scoring easier, one by eliminating "Cheater" lines (RP) and the other from the minders re-building sections while the checker is distracted!

[mich lin]

Trialsurfer, using Expert Sportsmen and Expert for a two year prep course for the Pros is indeed the Natc plan, how well did it work? Don't see a bunch of North Americans scoring World Championship points.

We need a quicker transition for the kids "times a ticking", a confidence building element and more competition between the riders to add pressure. Something the two year NATC prep course has failed to provide.

It's simply not just harder sections that make better riders, it's competition! Tighter gates, fewer kickers is a baby step start but will not make champions alone, it's the combination of better sections, competition, support and confidence.

In short its the creation of a winning culture like we see in Spain, Great Britan and perhaps Japan. Now if the NATC chooses to stay the course and keep the game plan we now use, fine. Just don't expect amazing results in the near future from any American teams or individuals. The current system has been in place for a long time as has simply not produced good results.

In a winning culture riders learn from other riders! When riders are segrigated they can't. Part of riding is pacing, knowing your limits and building confidence by seeing it done right. Then attempting it yourself, in a segregated culture like the NATC nationals have become, seeing and attempting it yourself is not possible.

That's why we need to break down the walls of segrigation between the up and coming, the current best and keep the old pros around for as long as possible. That's done by combining the 3 classes into one.

[mich lin]

Now, I agree with you that training is good but consider that the best training is riding trials with tough riders.

Getting dedication from the riders is as simple a giving them a reward for riding! There are 3 rules to championship trials and every rider must be able to say yes that he is following the 3 rules or else he will not continue riding.

Here for the first time in public, are the 3 rules to championship riding

They are the key to success-

number one- Score Championship points

number two- Have fun or be paid a lot of money

Number three- Learn something everytime you ride

Now if a rider cannot say yes to all three of these rules, he cannot stay in the game for very long. This is very deep but most definetly the key to success at championship sport. REMEMBER THEM!

The NATC is horrible at maintaining the needed atmosphere for a rider to maintain the 3 rules. That's why I've quit riding NATC nationals twice!

Once in the early 80s and then this past season.

I had decided to come back and ride this year with my goal being Pro national #7, which was very possible. Then next season ride the 55 year old class and try to win that age championship.

The NATC disqualified me from my national attempt! BLAH, BLAH BLAH1

They refunded my entry fee but I lost about $500 dollars on my non-refundable airplane tickets to the nationals. This took all the fun out of NATC national trials for me, which broke championship riding rule number 2. Which forced me to retire from NATC trials again. I doubt if I'll ever return.

Yet the NATC claims they want more riders? Yet they would not let me work for my personal goal of national #7, learn, study or score championship points.

No wonder trials is a disappearing sport and the NATC is having trouble.