Fuel mixture

[huski]

Nothing to do with the fuel injection,the motor has a cross hatch pattern on the bore which holds oil better.,Someone I know whose family business is go kart tuning has one and they stripped the top end off to check it over,it was fine.Gas gas pro main bearings are lubed by the gear oil too,but you wouldn't run one on 200/1

[totty79]

Pretty much every cylinder has had a cross hatch hone since at least the 60s.

 

[goudrons]

When they were originally released, Vertigo advise was 40ml to 5 litres of petrol.

It seems that got altered to 25ml to 5 litres of petrol not long after.

 

That means some early owners got printouts advising 40ml and later owners got them stating 25ml.

I have a club mate with a bike a little older than mine came with the 40ml recommendation, mine 25ml.

 

I've ran mine since new in July 2016 with the 25ml mix and it's fine.

Though I've not used the free bottle of Strawberry scented oil that came with it, don't want to spend all day with my belly rumbling!

I've only ever used one brand of 2 stroke and always bought their synthetic offering, It's never given me any issues and I don't plan on that changing.

 

BTW, some of the newer owners may discover that the plug soots up (even on 25ml) after a few hours.

The BPMR6A is a little too cool for them, a BPMR4A has a little more of the tip protruding, runs a little hot and so far seems to work better.

 

 

 

Edited February 6, 2017 by goudrons

[sniper]

2 hours ago, goudrons said:

BTW, some of the newer owners may discover that the plug soots up (even on 25ml) after a few hours.

The BPMR6A is a little too cool for them, a BPMR4A has a little more of the tip protruding, runs a little hot and so far seems to work better.

I 'think' the 4 is the plug coming the newer ones are coming with (maybe UK?), at least that is what Nick said on Saturday! I asked specifically because i had to run a slightly hotter plug in my evo.

 

How do you like yours?

Edited February 6, 2017 by sniper

[sniper]

20 hours ago, oni nou said:

Are you talking about a normal 2t like a GasGas pro....or the OSSA TRi ? maybe the SHERCO ST and JOTAGAS with totally sealed mains that contain the lubricant etc ?.You better have a word with all the thousands of people out there running 80:1 in bikes that have their bearings lubricated by the fuel/oil mix...I think it has more to do with the properties of the oil used than the amount you use.They used to run works bikes at 100:1 back in the late 90's from what I have read and they did not have mains run off the gearbox oil at that time.If they thought it was a problem I do not think that they would have used that ratio on the World stage for all to see their DNF's due to engine failure.

More main bearing failures will come from bikes being stored for long periods of time where they are subject to condensation causing rust formation on the balls and races and then pitting or lack of care/maintenance of air filtration before the said lubricant reaches the bearings than a mixture of 80:1 which is sufficient using todays 2t oils.

I used to run my old  GasGas jt  jtx txt's at 80:1 without problems.

 

Here is one......... using ATF in a trials gearbox. Should be a no go high pathetically[that's not a spelling mistake]

plenty of people have used it for years in trials gearboxes with no problems myself included.

 

 

 

I was just trying to make the point that with the older/existing bikes 80:1 is fine, that's what I run currently; never had the desire to use less. But if Vertigo recommend 200:1, I guess the design including the fuel injection etc allows for this! I have also used ATF and seen no problems.

 

19 hours ago, oni nou said:

They have to warranty the bike for a short time so they would advocate the use of more oil as a belt and braces approach.

And how is Vertigo any different? My point here was most manufacturers suggest more than most of us actually run, so if they suggest 200:1 that's erring on the side of caution; don't imagine they want seized engines!

[b40rt]

4 hours ago, goudrons said:

 

I've ran mine since new in July 2016 with the 25ml mix and it's fine.

BTW, some of the newer owners may discover that the plug soots up (even on 25ml) after a few hours.

The BPMR6A is a little too cool for them, a BPMR4A has a little more of the tip protruding, runs a little hot and so far seems to work better.

 

 

 

If your plug is sooted at 200 :  I , its more likly its running rich than anything to do with 2 stoke oil. 

[sniper]

15 minutes ago, oni nou said:

So if the same 2T oil [lets use what vertigo recommends] were to be used in...........

1.An engine that has the fuel oil mix metered to provide exactly the correct amount required for a better burn and consumption/emissions etc can run in an engine that only needs to lubricate  the cylinder/piston/rings at 200:1

2.An engine that has the fuel metered by a carburettor that is set up correctly[and will probably be more inclined to provide a little too much fuel and therefore lubricant] in an engine that only needs to lubricate the cylinder/piston/rings at 80:1....These are later bikes as I described earlier GasGas pro gearbox oil lubes bearings,OSSA TRi sealed bearings,Sherco ST sealed bearings Jotagas sealed bearings [sealed bearings have their lubricant in them and do not rely on the fuel oil mix for their lubrication although there will be an effect of cooling from the incoming charge.

Given that the same oil is used and therefore has the same lubricity and stability under very similar conditions as I would imagine that the Vertigo engine operates under fairly similar heat range as other 2t trials engines,and we only need to lubricate the same surfaces within the engines.....What is the contributing factor that makes it possible to run number 1 engine at a ratio of 200:1 as compared to model 2.that runs at 80:1?

Does the Vertigo use ceramic aerospace coatings on piston or have Krypton piston rings or is the difference not x hatch hone but x hatch grooves in the surface of the cylinder holding more oil to the cylinder wall .......any one got the answers? 

Or is it just that the oil is well on top of its job and can stop surfaces within the engine touching each other under the conditions which the engine operates.....Which takes me back to if the Vertigo can get away with 200:1 then surely 80:1 will be plenty in one of the later other makes so why use more to which the reply was  other [later] bikes need their bearings lubed .....which they don't as they are either sealed or lubricated by the gearbox oil with possibly the Beta being the exception.....TRS?

Is it ok to run our later bikes at 120:1 and help to save your childerens futures or more importantly some of my money or is 80:1 the minimum amount of oil we can get away with.........Is a minimum of 80:1 just an alternative fact tweeted by Donald Trump.

I haven't suggested for one minute that i know the answers, I was merely suggesting fuel injection and/or engine design; in fact I have emailed Vertigo to try and find out. I still believe the more effective and accurate metering of fuel relating to the actual load on the engine plays a significant part in that ratio. The fact that it can provide more fuel when in the top 2 gears compared to 1-4, because it knows that those are the 'road' going gears and the engine is under more load; says a lot! But there must be some reason why they suggest that ratio, I really cant imagine they have said fcuk it lets suggest a ratio so all our customer seize there engines, can you? Seeing that there are vertigo owners running 200:1 for a year or more would suggest your comment regarding the 120:1 is probably more accurate. In fact just looking around at a trial yesterday, the amount of seriously smoking exhausts after a decent blast between sections (mine included) would also back this up.

But are you brave enough to go away from 80:1 which is already against the manufacturers 'guidelines' (certainly for Beta), to say 100/120:1; just in case something goes wrong? And why would a manufacturer of a carb model suggest a more accurate fuel mixture tolerance, when the carbs can be so easily 'adjusted' to run lean; and risk a load of seizures damaging there reputations? At least Vertigo can be fairly sure the mappings wont be tampered with! 

[sniper]

8 minutes ago, oni nou said:

Last post not aimed at you Sniper although it does contain remarks made by yourself, the thing that interests me is that having read that ratios of 100:1 were being used in bikes as far back as the late 90's in trials bikes that used open crank bearings  and with these new very low amounts of oil in the mix are people putting too much oil in their engines because back in the old days that's what everyone did and so if it was great then its just as great now.....One should bear in mind; not of course that these excess oils are being put out into the air that we and childeren breathe[who cares about that] but the amount of money people are wasting by over oiling. So if any one has got any technical insight I am interested even if no one else is.

Agreed, I heard that yesterday whilst discussing this topic; that some older gassers used ratios of 100:1 to no ill effect?

But totally agree with you on excessive oils being spewed out, especially if not needed (some smokey pre65's make me wonder whilst I choke on their fumes)!

I had a response from Vertigo, whilst no real technical detail; they say its due to the fuel injection! But I'm also interested in hearing a more technical insight, if anyone has one!

[heffergm]

I run 100:1 in my GG's. They've all lived 150+ hours.

[axulsuv]

And we must remember one point that always seems to get confused ... More oil actually makes the bike run lean , fuel wise ....

rich or lean with a carb and we play with needles and jets , the amount of oil should be a constant . Does the vertigo have a O2 sensor ?

[baldilocks]

Oil companies recommend we use more oil, I don't believe it?

[billyt]

[heffergm]

5 hours ago, oni nou said:

This is just a reminder Sir.

I have no idea what that means in the context of this discussion or the comment.

[heffergm]

My jetting is stock. Everyone I know that runs a GG around here (there are quite a few of them) runs 80:1 or 100:1 on a good synthetic premix. I can't remember the last time I saw a GG produced in the last decade with a motor issue. Transmission, yes. Motor, no

Edited February 9, 2017 by heffergm

[billyt]

Food for thought.......  Orifice of jet constant.  Adding more oil to the pre mix.  There is a point where adding so much oil the mix will go lean (due to the more oil displacing the gas molecules to get through a given orifice).  Although the oil mix ratio has went rich the burn mix has went lean. Go figure this paradox...     ask your self what is more flammable a full gas can or an empty gas can?  Trials oil gas mixing ratios of the majority of riders are no where near the controversial  tipping point of too much oil making the mixture go lean.  We are taking about below 20:1 ratios.    

Oil in the gas has several jobs to do, depending upon engine design, oil the main bearings, lube the con rod, lube the piston to wall, help stop blow by.  If there is a CO sensor in the Vertigo exhaust then maybe it is sensitive to carbon build up hence cutting back the oil ratio to help the CO sensor stability longevity???   

Edited February 10, 2017 by billyt