Rules Questions

[duct tape]

Hello, I'm a new rider from Colorado and have just purchased a GG300. While watching the Duluth trials competition DVD, I was very confused on several scoring issues. I've asked these questions on Ktmtalk.com and here is the link http://ktmtalk.com/index.php?showtopic=139126&st=0&.

It occurred to me that there were some experts across the water who might be able to clear this up, assuming AMA rules (which do refer to the FIM) are the same as yours.

I'm especially interested in the rules about backing up, or stopping with the skid plate supported on a rock, since both of these seemed to occur regularly in the DVD.

Thanks and hello.

[Andy]

Guests are not allowed to read the topic you posted the link to.

[duct tape]

Sorry, wasn't aware of that. I've pasted below my last comment in the thread:

If a section DNF = 5, then once you get 5 for something else, such as bystander help, breaking a barrier (I think), going over 90 seconds, or other failure, do you just quit that section?

Also, how many total points for a single section can you get by dabbing? If you put your foot down more than twice, getting 3 points, from that point can you use both of your feet for the remainder of that section, or is a section divided into smaller subsections?

I found This AMA link of FIM rules and paste part of it below:

Errors Penalty

1 fault: 1 point

2 faults: 2 points

More than 2 faults: 3 points

Failure: 5 points

Missing a section (no punch): 10 points

What exactly is "missing a section" - not showing up? Why not just start out, then quit and get only 5 for a failure?

Finally, the whole concept of forward motion, or the rule against going backward is confusing. In the Duluth DVD it looks like many of the competitors at the very least inch backward while hopping around at the bottom of a wall to set up the next climb. I also can recall several times when they were totally stopped with the bike supported on a rock by the skid plate. Technically these are failures according to the rules link, but I didn't see any "5's" raised by the scorers.

Thanks again for any input. Just an interested newbie looking into some new fun.

[rabie]

some very good questions which are slightly difficult to answer

first of all the world rounds use one system of marking, we in the UK then alternate between two other different systems (the differences are very subtle but important and make a world of difference)

the standard system world wide is 0,1,2,3,5 and 10

as you say 10 is extremely rare - but only happens if you miss a section. so what most riders do if they don't like to look of a section (too hard, or not enough time left in a time limited trial) they ride in the "begins" and turn around - ie getting a five

5 is essentially a DNF for the reasons you list (and more)

"faults" is an interesting word but thats basically it, you can get none (a clean or zero), one, two or three. if you get more than three it still counts as a three - ie you can millipede your way through a section for a three rather than a five (if you don't breach some very technical rules)

the other areas you highlight are were the confusion lies / and or the ability of the observer(s) seeing the event (but the TV camera may have). in our rules technically you fault (or it could be 5 / DNF) if any part of the bike rests on the ground (ie bash plate)

as for backward motion - this stems from way back in the day when you literary could be stopping at all (due to the bikes), so trials is meant to be non stop. however some very clever guy (someone will name him for me) developed the modern trick style of riding (bunny hoping, etc), but this stops forward motion. hence anther set of rules was created to either allows for this type of very skillful riding and/or to allow it but penalise you for doing it (ie a fault for stopping forward motion). On all counts going back wards is verboten but in practise how you tell this, and the benefit of hindsight / a DVD allows a much different interpretation of the result to be seen

hope that answers your question to an extent and i expect others to come in and correct / modify my answer as its actually quiet a complex topic and difficult and challenging to simplify (reminds me of the offside rule in football)

rabie

[alan bechard]

Duct Tape,,

There is an excellent video tape out by the NATC that Brian Behling I believe put together showing the scoring rules. It covers the situations you describe pretty well, showing them with guys on the bikes. Someone in your local club hopefully has this and will lend it too you.

Rabie laid it out pretty well also but I thought I would add a bit to maybe help clarify it.

Backing up, skidplating, stopped, while it seems very straight forward when watching the video and talking about it, when actually on the bike and bouncing about etc the line can get pretty gray. I was speaking to an observer from the World round Saturday night and that was one of the things he said as well, he had watched the DVD and saw where some riders got a "break" because the observer was in a blind spot at the moment or such and it is definetely hard to always see everything. One of the recurring themes of the NATC scoring video and something I stress to folks observing for me, is that you must give the rider the benefit of the doubt. They have the video stuff in football etc. but the short version is that we just have to go with what we see at the moment as observers.

The 10 point rule for missing a section.

The idea here is that you should not be able to just skip out on parts or loops of a trials. At the level of fun it is not that big of a deal, however as the seriousness of the competition increases, it comes more into play.

Let's say you have a 5 mile loop, there are 7 sections fairly close too the camp, section 4 and 6 are within 100 yards of each other, but to get to section 5 is one mile out and one mile back of really rugged trail. Now, section 5 is drop down killer hard, has this wall in there that you could never make it over in practice and the odds of getting through it with the ribbons up are slim and none and slim left on vacation. Would you be tempted to "miss that section"?

Sometimes people want to blow by a section that has a line at it and just skip it, that would also be missing a section.

And yes, often times if it is too difficult, folks will wheel in and kill it and recieve a 5. I believe that the current rules say that you must make an attempt but that can be interperted very differently.

As to the "do you quit once you have made a 5" that answer varies on the situation, the scoring stops, but often times I will ride out the rest of the section, particularly on the first lap to get the "feel" of the rest of the obstacles, or the experience of riding it out if you will. Of course if there is something dangerous past there that I was not comfortable with, I would pull out the side and call it a day. You will see a little of both going on at an event, but a little more finishing it out early in the day, and a little less towards the end of the day.

Keep the questions comeing, if we are not providing clear enough answers, let us try and explain it again.

Edited November 21, 2005 by Alan Bechard

[uhoh7]

It's funny how riders tactics seem to change dramatically once the magic "3" is reached. The feet starting coming down all over the place. But at "2" the epic struggle to ride clean continues. Makes you wonder if the system might be revised to discourage the "centipede" mode.

For example, you could make the magic number "5", and the current 5 could become "8" or "10". Blasphemy?

In some of the online interviews on this site there is talk of a no-stop rule being re-introduced on WTC outdoor, is this true?

Thanks for explaining all this stuff guys

Edited November 28, 2005 by uhoh7

[atomant]

Makes you wonder if the system might be revised to discourage the "centipede" mode.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You make a good point. The difference in a hard fought 2 and a 30 dab 3 is too small. Anyone else want to comment?

[mort]

I agree AtomAnt. a hard fought and well placed 3 dabs deservers more credit than a walk through the section pushing the bike(although still astride it ).perhaps a 4 mark awarded( or a stoning and booing from the observer).But there is still some satifaction of paddeling your way out of a bog like crazy and getting a 3 after getting stuck there on previous laps .

So perhaps we shall have to put up with it ,and anyway ,award or no award we all know how good or bad we have ridden .

[gasgaspunkuk]

I'm not joking at all here. The rule you're talking about is a godsend, esp. for rubbish riders like me. The feeling of getting a 3 in a sections is so much better than a 5, and it makes all the sections attemptable in some trials, for people of any ability, for example, if i had to give up after 5 dabs (assuming you can still score no more than 5) then i would just not attempt some sections, because i would no theres no way i can get through in less than the required amount of dabs.

The rule encourages people like me to just have a go, rather than 5ing everything, or even asking for fives.

(I really have to learn when to end my sentences.)

Edited November 29, 2005 by gasgaspunkuk

[rabie]

the problem between 1,2,3 dabs and 3 (millipede) is perhaps one of not enough classes/routes so that rider that is getting that is not good enough for that route

when i first learnt to wobble i could do most novice routes for 3's but clean the wobbler almost the whole time. its only after a few more rides that i can't start to (vaguely) compete on the novice route

again it also depends on the section layout - if you are needing to do 3 strategic dabs then perhaps the section is too long/ that route is too difficult for that class

some trials at some venues set out a certain way (with certain weather) will be high scoring - now is this good or bad, especially compared to a trial that is too easy and its won by the person who avoided making a silly mistake

rabie

[the artist formerly known as ish]

I'm not joking at all here. The rule you're talking about is a godsend, esp. for rubbish riders like me. The feeling of getting a 3 in a sections is so much better than a 5, and it makes all the sections attemptable in some trials, for people of any ability, for example, if i had to give up after 5 dabs (assuming you can still score no more than 5) then i would just not attempt some sections, because i would no theres no way i can get through in less than the required amount of dabs.

The rule encourages people like me to just have a go, rather than 5ing everything, or even asking for fives.

(I really have to learn when to end my sentences.)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Best reply I have seen in a long time, no bull just an honest answer why a three

is worthwhile, if I was going to change a system so a honest three was given three and a paddling ride should be given more I would think twice about changeing it given BB's answer.

[grouse]

You have to use the rules yo your best advantage no matter what they are.

Most people at the start of a section fully intend to try and clean it, but if you have 3 dabs the most important thing is to get out without a 5. I Personally dont care what it looks like as long as it does not turn into a 5. Every single mark counts in trials.

[toofasttim]

I'm not joking at all here. The rule you're talking about is a godsend, esp. for rubbish riders like me. The feeling of getting a 3 in a sections is so much better than a 5, and it makes all the sections attemptable in some trials, for people of any ability, for example, if i had to give up after 5 dabs (assuming you can still score no more than 5) then i would just not attempt some sections, because i would no theres no way i can get through in less than the required amount of dabs.

The rule encourages people like me to just have a go, rather than 5ing everything, or even asking for fives.

(I really have to learn when to end my sentences.)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Best reply I have seen in a long time, no bull just an honest answer why a three

is worthwhile, if I was going to change a system so a honest three was given three and a paddling ride should be given more I would think twice about changeing it given BB's answer.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Seconded. I'd never looked at things from that angle.

[rabie]

You have to use the rules yo your best advantage no matter what they are.

Most people at the start of a section fully intend to try and clean it, but if you have 3 dabs the most important thing is to get out without a 5. I Personally dont care what it looks like as long as it does not turn into a 5. Every single mark counts in trials.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

thats susm it up well

the way you aproach the section (as in riding style) is dependant upon the rules and this changes as your marks change

rabie :hat: