Billy Green docked "5" for stopping

[timp]

Lenient observing is the problem. Riders don't like getting five for a "hesitation". Most observers don't like giving a five for the hesitation.

But a hesitation is technically a stop if forward movement wasn't maintained. So an observer has an extremely difficult situation. I would probably be lenient if observing because of the confrontation and unpleasantness.

I always count one second for a stop. If the bike isn't moving after that it's a 5.

[sirdabalot]

Here's a quick thought without any depth. A front wheel rotation sensor, similar to ABS, connected to a transponder, signals the observer with flashing lights and sirens.

I'm going to the air raid shelter now. 

[timp]

I read about the Ssdt that one observer was giving 3 seconds for a stop. Others would give a five if the rider stopped with a foot down. Others allowed stops with feet up. Watching the video of Big Dars Burn some riders were stopping and lining up for the big bit without penalty. Totally unfair on those who do it non stop.

[timp]

4 minutes ago, sirdabalot said:

Here's a quick thought without any depth. A front wheel rotation sensor, similar to ABS, connected to a transponder, signals the observer with flashing lights and sirens.

I'm going to the air raid shelter now. 

So if  your front wheel locks up on mud it would be classed as a five?

No easy answer I'm afraid!

[spen]

I have always believed the idea of trials was to keep making forward progress, if the front wheel spindle stopped moving forwards before it reached the section ends marker it was a five, didn't matter if the wheel was locked up, the forward motion of the spindle and therefore the bike was the issue..... bit like me, fairly simple really.

Edited May 29, 2017 by spen

[timp]

This is an Acu and Fim problem. If clubs run big events there is a steward who writes a report on the event. If the observing isn't done correctly or the sections are not suitable for the rules this should be reported back to the governing body who should take action.

If this was athletics and a club ran the 400 metres but made it 350 metres because some runners didn't like running that far there would be trouble! 

[frenchmuppet]

14 hours ago, metisse said:

I was at a modern trial today and watched stop.. sections here in France .  What a difficult job being and observer is.. I.d have fived the fecking lot of them...when in fact the level I watched, and had ridden,  could have been ridden with out the pantomine of bouncing and p****** about... I was going to watch the world round in Lourdes,  but watching this circus I think I will cut the hedge instead.

The lads in my local club in France are the same, all trying to bounce around when it's not necessary instead of just riding tight turns. We were messing around yesterday riding some practice sections and one lad was dismayed when I jokingly gave him a five for reversing, apparently it's fine over here, even with your feet down!

Here's a vid of the kind of thing we have to put up with!

 

 

[metisse]

The reason the observing isn t done correctly is in that most clubs cannot afford to be picky on who picks up the pencil. I tend to agree that non stop should be in escence that,  but that fraction of a moment pause should be allowed. This without doubt raises the question on how long... and that is down to opinion. I asked several people yesterday who's other halfs have in the past helped and out of the five I asked, to a man they told me these people had no interest anymore, one because of the aggro, two they simply couldn't keep up with the rules.  If people want to ride stop and want to hop about front and back, then they need to be able to do it. If after a couple of hops the foot goes down and the bike is stopped methinks it should be five.. This is just my view right or wrong. 

[zippy]

17 hours ago, breagh said:

You'll  always get the odd rubbish decision be it stop or non stop in the long run they'll balance out' never heard anyone complaining about not getting a 5 for a stop.

I imagine Bou will get the benefit of the doubt pretty often ,however I suppose all those years ago when he wasn't world champ he got plenty dodgy 5s just like any other upcoming rider.

So your argument is that "he paid his dues as an upcoming rider and now deserves special treatment"?

BS.  Rules should be applied fairly and consistently to all competitors regardless of time in the sport, notoriety, season standings etc...

 

1 hour ago, metisse said:

The reason the observing isn t done correctly is in that most clubs cannot afford to be picky on who picks up the pencil. I tend to agree that non stop should be in escence that,  but that fraction of a moment pause should be allowed. This without doubt raises the question on how long... and that is down to opinion. I asked several people yesterday who's other halfs have in the past helped and out of the five I asked, to a man they told me these people had no interest anymore, one because of the aggro, two they simply couldn't keep up with the rules.  If people want to ride stop and want to hop about front and back, then they need to be able to do it. If after a couple of hops the foot goes down and the bike is stopped methinks it should be five.. This is just my view right or wrong. 

Agree,

Here is what I posted on the Trial GP video thread.

Personal opinion, Trials is about control and skill.

Choosing a line and riding it non stop requires control of the motorcycle and skill

Being able to stop and balance requires control of the motorcycle and skill

Both are about control and skill, just different sets.

BUT stopping with a foot down shows a lack of skill and requires little to no control because the bike's own kickstand can do that without you.  So, I prefer when the rules are set that stop + foot down = 5.  With that rule at club level both styles of riding can be done in the same sections.  There is no need to make the sections increasingly harder, merely not allowing foot down while stopping increases the difficulty.

Not exactly sure if that same rule would have the same impact at the world round level.

[cleanorbust]

6 hours ago, timp said:

This is an Acu and Fim problem. If clubs run big events there is a steward who writes a report on the event. If the observing isn't done correctly or the sections are not suitable for the rules this should be reported back to the governing body who should take action.

If this was athletics and a club ran the 400 metres but made it 350 metres because some runners didn't like running that far there would be trouble! 

I take your point. However, in my opinion there is in reality a difficulty in defining "correct" observing.

According to the rules, correct observing means 5 for a stop.

In the minds of most observers, correct observing means applying a bit, or a lot, of leniency.

I tend to accept this gratefully, though recall one instance where my "3" was such a blatant 5 I got it corrected after I'd picked the bike up and got it started. The observer, a highly experienced individual, explained that she hadn't given me a five because I seemed to have tried so hard.

Edited May 29, 2017 by cleanorbust

[tricky dicky]

I observed at Tong last year and I am observing this year too and it is not a pleasant job. My team enforced the rules fairly all weekend and it was no fun. The standard of the riding became very irrelevant due to the amount of abuse we got. I think I'm going to kit myself out like the Jap observers do with their hard hats haha. 

Seriously though it is farcical now and not only are the riders stopping, they are also reversing.  There isn't really an easy cure as the bikes are that good now that the sections need to be harder. The observing was awful at the SSDT this year but how do we complain when they are volunteers? No stop is great if observed correctly. I'm just seeing a full circle that happened before and the riders are taking the Mickey so much that when an observer observes correctly the toys are out the pram and WW3 is on the horizon. This happened around 2005 ish and the rules were reverted to stop allowed. 

For a beginner stop allowed is better as they can gather themselves when they are not confident and it's far easier to observe with far little confrontation for the observers. I do agree that moving the bike round whilst the rider is stationary and feet down is crap though. Maybe we should revert to the stationary dab rule from the 90's! Feet up reversing and all! 

[cabby]

I got a 5 at the Scottish championship in April for stopping, I was staggered when I was told, quite litterly couldn't believe it  and to this moment I have no recollection of stopping whatsoever in that section 

[heffergm]

I'm amazed anyone got called for a stop in a Japanese GP, unless it was a pretty legit stop (hung up on an obstacle, rollback with a foot down, etc). I mean, look at the sections. For the upper level guys they're not possible to ride no stop. For the lower level guys yes. There are plenty of videos on youtube illustrating the point now... I still haven't seen a section where no one stopped, and if they five'd all of those they'd have had no one with anything but five's all day.

Edited May 29, 2017 by heffergm

[baldilocks]

I think that's certainly a major issue. The sections are either as they were under stop permitted or they have 20 yards of nothing between piles of rocks. It's very difficult to construct man made no stop sections. However the Spanish round looked like fantastic terrain but still had lots of tight turns.

Venues need to be better but still needs a no stop clerk of the course.

[cleanorbust]

4 hours ago, tricky dicky said:

The observing was awful at the SSDT this year but how do we complain when they are volunteers? 

You can't. Or at least, I'm sure anyone who made a habit of criticising the performance of observers would have it pointed out that these are the people who give their time, standing out in all weathers so that we can have our fun, without whom there would be no trials. I dare say this would be offered along with the suggestion that if they think they can do a better job there's nothing to stop them volunteering.

All of which would be true.