rabie Posted December 3, 2003 Report Share Posted December 3, 2003 nah mate first of all i would say MX is not in any sort of cosy position - tracks do not run regular practise days. there is a dire shortage of practise tracks, and those that exist are normally crap. the racing tracks are club run by fewer and fewer volunteers who are burdened with more worries and fewer volunteers. on the legal front the assault on permitted development s(14/28 day rule) was a very scary prospect - basically we all *hide*under the 14/28 day rule and most who have ventured out (eg practise tracks) have such a bad experience of the planning process that its scary (read extinction). Plus we have the ever troublesome insurance to keep up with and legal claims. then there is noise........... to me sure the ramblers are a threat and so are abusers but i think *serious* enduro riders are ridding MX practise tracks or going to places like Tom's farm (see mxtrax.co.uk for more info - its 600 acers of free riding in wales). sure enduro riders use green lanes but I've never herd as practise - I'd say the treat is pikies and *youths* from estates just riding anywhere (as described in TMX). i think the legal bikers illegally practising does happen but they are not the main cause rabie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neonsurge Posted December 3, 2003 Report Share Posted December 3, 2003 rabie: Well, I understand what you're saying and I suppose that the situation might be different in different parts of the country. In this part of the world (at the intersection of the NY Moors national park and 4 very large areas of forestry) it's mainly recreational trailriders who simply don't know any better that are the real problem. The other groups of riders that I've met in the past few years have invariably all been riding late-model pukka enduro bikes and have all of the expensive kit - certainly not pikies. They've jumped straight off an R1 onto a WR450 and headed into the closest area of unpopulated land. And since so many enduro events take place in the area (YEC's Yorkshire Enduro and Ryedale Rally, NEEC's Langdale Enduro and many smaller events), it's these that feel the backlash first and hardest. My local club is fortunate enough to own its own land - a huge area of woodland that I've seen described elsewhere as "trials heaven" (and it is). There's also a motocross track that hosts regular meetings, mainly during the summer months but I think that it's fair to say that trials is the club's primary focus. The park is open to members for practise every day of the year when there's no event on but trail, enduro and MX bikes are explicitly banned. And as a "born again" trials rider, I'm totally in favour of that rule because my pleasant Sunday afternoon "pootling about and falling off into the river" sessions aren't disturbed by hoards of big-bore thumpers and shrieking 'strokers screaming around the place - apart from anything else it'd only be a matter of time before someone got seriously hurt as a result of a high-speed collision. No, I and just about everyone else I've spoken to like things just as they are, thank you very much. But is this a case of bare-faced hypocrisy? We all accept that we need to educate people to ride responsibly (which is really what it all comes down to), but here we are with all this land in the middle of what must be one of the most "abused" areas in the UK in terms of illegal riding yet we don't (and won't, hopefully) give these people somewhere legitimate to enjoy their chosen hobby. The club has no obligation to anyone other than their members and since it's a trials club that wholly owns the land upon which they allow free practise and hold all of their events, it's entirely their perogative to deny access to the type of riding that's likely to damage the sections far more quickly than a thousand trials bikes would ever do and probably result in a comparatively high accident rate. From this perspective, the "trials bikes only" policy is completely understandable and wholly sensible. I honestly can't see a resolution to this dichotomy that'd be acceptable and mutually beneficial to all interested parties. Which is why I still believe that commercially operated "trail parks", similar to those operated in many parts of Japan is where our sports/pastimes are headed. I accept that this may be a unique "localised" perspective and I'd enjoy reading what the situation's like in terms of legal practise areas elsewhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrc2002 Posted December 3, 2003 Report Share Posted December 3, 2003 (edited) nah matefirst of all i would say MX is not in any sort of cosy position - tracks do not run regular practise days. there is a dire shortage of practise tracks, and those that exist are normally crap. the racing tracks are club run by fewer and fewer volunteers who are burdened with more worries and fewer volunteers. on the legal front the assault on permitted development s(14/28 day rule) was a very scary prospect - basically we all *hide*under the 14/28 day rule and most who have ventured out (eg practise tracks) have such a bad experience of the planning process that its scary (read extinction). Plus we have the ever troublesome insurance to keep up with and legal claims. then there is noise........... to me sure the ramblers are a threat and so are abusers but i think *serious* enduro riders are ridding MX practise tracks or going to places like Tom's farm (see mxtrax.co.uk for more info - its 600 acers of free riding in wales). sure enduro riders use green lanes but I've never herd as practise - I'd say the treat is pikies and *youths* from estates just riding anywhere (as described in TMX). i think the legal bikers illegally practising does happen but they are not the main cause rabie I understand that the pikies and youth riders just ride anywhere, this is so true. Where I live I have one massive field to practice on, unfortunatly so does everyone else who has an engine and wheels. There is also a very big 'white path' as its called that runs from each field and is about a 2 miles long. Its NOT a path however, it is a road. Other kids have the bikes, from an estate at the opposite end of the field, and they dont give a s**t and just fly around anywhere they can get grip, ruining it for everyone else. They ride near people with dogs, near children, near cars and houses and it pi**es me right off. It may be because they DO NOT competite, and dont understand that the ammount of practice spots is falling because of them, and everyone gets tarred with the same brush, because of them. It is that the do not care for there 'sport' (many ride on Honda Expresses with plates ripped off for proper off-road use...you know how it is) and they dont understand what they are doing. Only the police can sort them out...but the police dont and wont understand. HRC2002 Edited December 3, 2003 by HRC2002 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rabie Posted December 4, 2003 Report Share Posted December 4, 2003 fair cop the problem around here (and for my club's land) is people with bikes - in the main unofficial people, although some official people who can't be a***d to travel the hundreds of miles to an open practise track. anyway these people just go on any land - the "born again" brigade can travel, and do travel - to proper places because they are after something decent, eg toms farm (they go from London to the middle of wales ) on the MX front they travel to *proper* MX tracks that are open....... so to us the problem is the illegals (pikies, youths, yobs, etc - mainly on stolen bikes, etc) on any land (commonly called *wasteland* - ie normally a nature reserve for the lesser spotted amoeba). its gets us bad press, people do get injured and generally not good. maybe trials has it different - knowing the planning process your lucky you haven't been caught by the hippies - you need planning permission for anything more than 14/28 days use and weather trials is 28 or 14 is debatable. admittedly no one can hear a trials bike so they normally don't mind but an open practise area sounds a bit doggy - how do you get insured, keep its safe, etc, etc - an unsupervised area sounds likes its open to abuse. how do you stop overuse of the land? rabie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neonsurge Posted December 4, 2003 Report Share Posted December 4, 2003 an open practise area sounds a bit doggy - how do you get insured, keep its safe, etc, etc - an unsupervised area sounds likes its open to abuse. how do you stop overuse of the land? Y'know, I've never really thought about it from that point of view. First of all, the land is wholly owned by the club: Lock, stock, the lot as they say, so there's no rental/lease issues to worry about. In fact, the club makes quite a bit of extra cash by hiring the land to the army a couple of weeks a year for exercises and quad training (which is kind of ironic since it was purchased from the MOD back in the sixties). I guess it's all about respect. The land is quite a way out in the sticks and not many members of the general populace know that it's there and although the club has quite a large membership (around 600 I believe) with club trials reguarly attracting 80-odd riders (and more) I've never, ever seen anything that could be even vaguely described as offensive or anti-social behaviour. I guess everyone realises what a unique facility it is and to put their membership in jepoardy just isn't worth it. As for insurance etc., I honestly don't know. What I do know is that it's been run like this for at least 30 years (believe it or not, it's the club's centenary this year) and I consider myself lucky to be involved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rabie Posted December 5, 2003 Report Share Posted December 5, 2003 suppose "up north" you have the space / less people - our land is small, very near to civilisation, crossed with footpaths, etc, etc - your usages are carefully watched and one lives in fear of the council running the club's land by putting injunctions on it. being a major contributor to the MX forum (adrenalintrip.net) the major issue there is practise tracks and associated problems - mainly planning and noise. trails riders are normally the most responsible in the sport but surely you need staff on site and other stuff for a practise facility. also with the skyhigh cost of public liability insurance make me worry (OK so its very rare for trails ever to cause an incident) interesting to hear how others do thing (especially clubs that own land - we're rare) rabie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neonsurge Posted December 5, 2003 Report Share Posted December 5, 2003 trails riders are normally the most responsible in the sport but surely you need staff on site and other stuff for a practise facility. Errrmm... why? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rabie Posted December 9, 2003 Report Share Posted December 9, 2003 you wouldn't leave anyone alone on land would you ??? i mean they need supervision surely the insurance policy requires someone on site ??? then again I've never seen a trials practise ground, but knowing loads about MX ones, there is no question that you need staff (several) on site. who collects the money to pay public liability (which is paid per day/event IIRC), where do they sign on ??? i just doesn't make sense also what stops the pikies getting, everyman and his dog dumping stuff (tyre's, dirt, cars, etc) - maybe i live in a very urbanised area (track next to London ~ 8+ million, while in Kent ~1.5 million), and if you were in the middle of nowhere it may be possible. eg up here in stoke/Newcastle i haven't seen dumped cars, pikies, or MX bikes all over the place rabie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neonsurge Posted December 9, 2003 Report Share Posted December 9, 2003 Well as far as land usage is concerned it's not really a problem. It's out in the sticks and the only vehicular access to the site is via an extremely substantial heavy metal gate that's secured with an industrial size padlock. Members pay an additonal fee per year to obtain a key and the lock is changed annually. On one side is fenced farmland, on the other side is a very steep hill covered with dense forest (with a river running along the bottom edge). The only conceivable method of access apart from the main gate is the far end which opens onto moorland, but this requires the traversal of some of the deepest bogs in Yorkshire and the crossing of a river. So access can be pretty easily controlled. There are proper toilets, administration facilities and a catering hut, all of which are (obviously) manned during events but not the rest of the time. What purpose would having club officials/employees present on site at all times serve? It's a relatively large area (I'd guess 8-odd square miles) and comprised of steep hills, rock-filled gulleys and thick woodland so "supervision" would be totally impractical. Remember, it's used almost exclusively for trials practise so injuries are pretty rare but there is a concrete road running the length of the park (it's ex-MOD land) so land ambulance access is possible. This thread has made me more aware of the problems facing riders in other parts of the country. I've lived (and ridden) in this area all my life and I guess I just take the park for granted. I realise that my recent mini-rants re. illegal riding (while justified in context) may look like small potatoes to some people. My apologies. I'll shut up and go away now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rabie Posted December 9, 2003 Report Share Posted December 9, 2003 no need to shut up or go away - wounds like a lovely place you've got up there. by contrast, we've got 36 acers, with a tarmac road and some shipping containers. the land has a BOAT next to it, lane along another side, the M25 on another, railway on another, open farmland on some more and a nature reserve on the next - we are crisscrossed by two footpaths - welcome to the south east. luckily we enjoy excellent community relations but most other clubs aren't so lucky. the problems (to us) are illegal practises and pikies. so out in the sticks i suppose you can do what you do..... for us its a different kettle of fish BTW I'm enjoying finding out how others do things. at a recent trails and enduro seminar John Collins said how in enduros it doesn't matter if the rider is two fields away as long as he is going in the general direction - we would run an enduro in two fields rabie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subira Posted December 9, 2003 Author Report Share Posted December 9, 2003 I heard the tail end of this on the radio today - heavy **** ! Most impact will be on TRF types but concern about some of the trials that use Green Lanes. There was some Rambler type commenting on how motorcycles didn't belong in the countryside - it spoilt the peace and quiet. Obviously a towny - what about planes, trains, tractors, etc that also have a right to be there ? ALUN MICHAEL LAUNCHES PROPOSALS ON USE OF OFF-ROAD VEHICLES ON RIGHTS OF WAY Proposals to curtail the inappropriate use of mechanically propelled vehicles on countryside rights of way are outlined in a public consultation launched today by Rural Affairs Minister Alun Michael. The consultation responds to widespread concern about problems caused by the use of mechanically propelled vehicles - including motorbikes, quad bikes and 4x4s - whose users can currently claim rights of way for such vehicles on the basis that the routes were historically employed by horse-drawn carriages. http://www.defra.gov.uk/news/2003/031209a.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neonsurge Posted December 9, 2003 Report Share Posted December 9, 2003 The consultation responds to widespread concern about problems caused by the use of mechanically propelled vehicles - including motorbikes, quad bikes and 4x4s - whose users can currently claim rights of way for such vehicles on the basis that the routes were historically employed by horse-drawn carriages.http://www.defra.gov.uk/news/2003/031209a.htm OK, my last word on the subject (speaking as an ex-trail and enduro rider): Whatever legislation is passed will make not a jot of difference. In fact, it'll make things worse. If the country's network of green lanes is effectively closed down (or, as seems to be the intention, drastically reduced), people will simply ride wherever they want. And they won't be on taxed, insured and MOT'd bikes, they'll be on full-bore MX-ers, racing quads and unregistered trials bikes. And why not? Any country-wide ROW closure will be utterly unenforceable. No license plates so no point of reference for the ramblers to report to the police. At least now there's some semblance of self-regulation through organisations such as the TRF (misguided and toothless as they are). In the future... nothing. It'll be a free for all. And then what? A ban on the sale of off-road vehicles? Given the lunacy of this current crap from DEFRA, it might not be so far fetched. Bleugh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rabie Posted December 10, 2003 Report Share Posted December 10, 2003 c'est la vie rabie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marky g Posted December 11, 2003 Report Share Posted December 11, 2003 At least now there's some semblance of self-regulation through organisations such as the TRF (misguided and toothless as they are). Dude, agree about the TRF......at least the branch local to me (Shropshire) me and my mate went to the local meeting place (pub) to see what they were all about. No bikes outside or nothing, we got a very cold reception from them once inside (they had all drove there in there company cars). They just didn't want to know...snobbish bunch of Tossers, no wonder people ride illegal places. Hopefully these "fellow riders" were just the minority Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neonsurge Posted December 12, 2003 Report Share Posted December 12, 2003 Dude, agree about the TRF......at least the branch local to me (Shropshire) me and my mate went to the local meeting place (pub) to see what they were all about.No bikes outside or nothing, we got a very cold reception from them once inside (they had all drove there in there company cars). The first words said to me when I went to a meeting of my local TRF branch were "...and don't think we're going to mark up your bloody maps!" Not very welcoming, is it? Needless to say I left and didn't renew my membership. And as for that silly rag of a national newsletter.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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