Acu Rule Tsr22a, Stop Is A 1 Etc

[sting32]

Interesting idea.

AM & PM trials, that makes for a long day.

As a regular trial organiser, I just can't imagine asking our experts to turn up and observe the Clubmen at 10am when they aren't going to ride until 2pm.

Then asking the clubman to finish riding and stand around soaking wet, muddy and cold for another three hours in the rain observing the Experts.

I might be wrong, but if I tried this idea I have a feeling I would be the only person to turn up.

Plus I would be clearing the course in total darkness at the end.

Still an interesting idea though.

Anyone else think it could work in the UK?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It aint that long of a day, and one guy doesnt "Do IT all" he does a lot though.

It is cooperation because observers are able to teardown sections at end of thier judging (works out we setup 2 sets of sections, morning and afternoon). nothing like 12 guys tearing down 12 sections, takes what 5 minutes, and is done simultaneoulsy.

I still didnt get the answer Scorpa, who judges over there? are they paid or volunteers or what?

[perce]

Here we go - in at the Deep end 

I will attempt to make a case why no stop should NEVER come back into the sport.

So I say design the rules around these skills, not what it was like 30 year ago!!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But so few riders actually have these skills. Most of those that hop & fanny about would do far better if they actually rode the sections in a straight forward manner. You're talking of marking Trials for the minority not the majority.

I don't think anybody wants to go back to the days 25 years ago where we all rode one route & that was it.

Edited December 1, 2005 by PERCE

[perce]

It aint that long of a day, and one guy doesnt "Do IT all" he does a lot though.

It is cooperation because observers are able to teardown sections at end of thier judging (works out we setup 2 sets of sections, morning and afternoon).  nothing like 12 guys tearing down 12 sections, takes what 5 minutes, and is done simultaneoulsy.

I still didnt get the answer Scorpa, who judges over there?  are they paid or volunteers or what?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Observing is done by volunteers such as friends, family members of riders etc. Our club quite often gets entries of 200 for trials & in the summer months it's fairly easy to get observers but when it's cold & damp in the winter we can struggle a bit. At the 3 day we run there are 40 sections a day & we never struggle for observers & helpers. To close the course we run a back marker system which usually is whoever has acted as clerk of the course for that event, to a certain level the c of c can also compete in the event he's marked out. Markers out usually get a free entry & the observers get food from the butty waggon.

Edited December 1, 2005 by PERCE

[atomant]

Here we go - in at the Deep end

[the artist formerly known as ish]

My general view on most things is not to look back and keep looking forward. I have ridden some of the easier sections at a trial that Ross Danby rides and cleaned them, but when he does it its elegant and stylish and a pleasure to watch! Nothing like what mine is and for me I like to watch that!

So I say design the rules around these skills, not what it was like 30 year ago!!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That is just what was done, and the result of is the mess we have now.

Bradford boxing day trial, plenty of good riders, plenty of tight techncal sections, most of the spectators watched the hill climb, funny the only full no stop section in the trial was the most popular to spectate.

[Q]most wanting full no stop are over forty [Q]

I did a poll on Todo Trial and TA when Andy was web master asking what age are you? most of the riders were over 32.

I edited the age from 40 to 32, forty was not correct.

Edited December 1, 2005 by ishy

[atomant]

I must admit, I do love a hill climb People watch them though because they like to see the riders fall off.

The routes take care of capabilities dont they?, We mark out a clubman route at our club and no hopping is necessary.The 1 point penalty for stopping with your feet up is never used at our club to my knowledge, so it might as well not be there. As for the rest of the rules, I think you should be able to do anything inside the gates as long as you got your feet up and not getting assistance from something. forwards/backwards/sideways/anything!

[neonsurge]

Scoring system for club trials:

One dab = 1.

Two dabs = 2.

Three or more dabs = 3.

Falling off or going outside the flags = 5.

That's it and it works. Makes it easy for the observers who've probably never even seen the ACU handbook. I've never seen any problems with riders taking too long in a section since those in the queue behind them usually let them know that they're getting bored!

[rabie]

my two pence worth

as John Collins has said, we currently have a wide diversity of systems and therefore a move to one won't happen

some people, for what ever reason, want to non stop (TSR 22 and i as Atom Ant says there is an equal cases for allowing stopping with penalties (TSR 22 A).

obviously there is scope for other methods to be invented (call them c, d, e, etc) so you can do FIM if you want to, or do an egg carrying contest, etc, etc (and obviously time and observation events still run under some code ???). if you stop people doing it, as Atom Ant says "Whats stopping me from making my own rules for a club trial?", by imposing one national system then they will just sod off and form an AMCA or ORPA club, which defeats the point of it.

at the end of the day its up to you, in your the clubs, centres, and nationally do decide what method is appropriate for that event / championship. our strength lies in being able to accommodate all!

on another note....

Elvis's post was good and has merit. firstly on the "four" idea - why not .... but on the "ten" being the old "five" as in a "non attempt" i say no, as there is still nothing to stop someone just going in the section and turning round (a five), when the person who has had the courtesy to ask is now going to get a ten .......

rabie

[scorpa3]

Scoring system for club trials:

One dab = 1.

Two dabs = 2.

Three or more dabs = 3.

Falling off or going outside the flags = 5.

That's it and it works. Makes it easy for the observers who've probably never even seen the ACU handbook. I've never seen any problems with riders taking too long in a section since those in the queue behind them usually let them know that they're getting bored!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Perfect, just add in one word to the start of the fourth line: Stopping,.....

Now we're there. Easy & Simple to explain.

[bikespace]

Scoring system for club trials:

One dab = 1.

Two dabs = 2.

Three or more dabs = 3.

Falling off or going outside the flags = 5.

That's it and it works. Makes it easy for the observers who've probably never even seen the ACU handbook. I've never seen any problems with riders taking too long in a section since those in the queue behind them usually let them know that they're getting bored!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Perfect, just add in one word to the start of the fourth line: Stopping,.....

Now we're there. Easy & Simple to explain.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It's just started to get complicated again, with that one word.

1. Has he stopped if the wheel hops sideways?

2. Which wheel has to stop? Front wheel stops or back wheel stops or both?

3. If you hop the rear wheel round 90 degrees with your front wheel stationary have you gone sideways? Your rear wheel by definition must have gone slightly forwards with each degree (ask pythagoras).

[the artist formerly known as ish]

I think it is clear those who prefer a certain set of rules will always argue in favor of those rules.

Getting club riders, observers,and bike sale numbers up at club level should be the main objective, at this time it's hard to move that used bike on so you can buy a new one, unless you don't mind taking a big hit in the wallet.

Been tried...... stop while foot down 1, stop while feet up 1. backing up legal, backing up not legal, stop with foot down 5, stop at all 5, hopping sideways legal, sideways not legal, sections timed, sections not timed, **** observing I'm off pub

My point, having ridden in the UK for many years all the trials were fully observed, turn up get your number ride the event.

In the USA, turn up, observe all morning, ride the afternoon, or go out in groups of four and score each other through the sections, very inconsistant scoring, what would you do in the UK if you had no observers?

One good thing about the USA, for a country this size, I'm not aware of any clubs in the US at this time who are not all on the same page regarding rules, so why is it so hard for the UK to pick one set and stick with it ?

Maybe the ones deciding what observing rules are used, should be the ones doing the job.

Edited December 1, 2005 by ishy

[scorpa3]

I think it is clear those who prefer a certain set of rules will always argue in favor of those rules.

Getting club riders, observers,and bike sale numbers up at club level should be the main objective, at this time it's hard to move that used bike on so you can buy a new one, unless you don't mind taking a big hit in the wallet.

Been tried...... stop while foot down 1, stop while feet up 1. backing up legal, backing up not legal, stop with foot down 5, stop at all 5, hopping sideways legal, sideways not legal, sections timed, sections not timed, **** observing I'm off pub

Edited December 1, 2005 by scorpa3

[woody]

The routes take care of capabilities dont they?, We mark out a clubman route at our club and no hopping is necessary.The 1 point penalty for stopping with your feet up is never used at our club to my knowledge, so it might as well not be there. As for the rest of the rules, I think you should be able to do anything inside the gates as long as you got your feet up and not getting assistance from something. forwards/backwards/sideways/anything!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You have to be joking... did you ride events in the late 80s early 90s when these were the rules. If so and you've forgotten what it was like, watch some of the videos/DVDs of Nationals from that time. As Timp already mentioned, the poncing around in sections and outright posing of the 'look what I can do' brigade was tedious in the extreme. Leg waving, revving engines, rocking backwards and forwards, touching the peak of their helmets (why..??) losing their balance and needing a couple of hops to get it back. Repeat these actions several times and then finally they were ready to move the bike forwards over a rock or whatever to the next part of the section before the whole sorry process began again, over and over until they were out of the section or in a heap on the floor. The stationary balancing with constant adjustments was pure pain to watch, especially if you were a few riders back in the queue, waiting, bored out of your skull, for your own turn. Watch the 1993 Colmore if you want to witness it. The challenge will be not to fall asleep as the cameraman vainly waits for riders to do something other than stand stationary on the pegs.

Why are we trying to fix something that doesn't appear to be broken. Trials such as SSDT, Lakes, Reeth, non-Novogar nationals are all enjoying bumper entries. The vast majority in those trials ride the clubman route. So if riders want the more difficult sections on the hard route that require you to be able to display the full repetoire of tricks, why isn't the balance the other way around with those riding the easier sections in the minority?

Setting out sections to force trick riding will not make people learn it and gain the technique. It didn't back then with the 'anything goes' rules and history shows that entries declined. That was riders choice, no-one else's.

The skill levels are too diverse now for one set of rules. To be able to compete on the level required at the top, constant practise is required, there is no substitute for thime on the bike. Who has time for that? The majority of riders only get to ride their bikes in the events, few have time or facilities to practise. As I said before I don't think for a minute that adopting WTC rules will miraculously produce the next UK champion, if it would why didn't we have one 10 - 15 years ago when rules were uniform.

Bottom line is, it is the majority that need to be catered for, not the minority and this has to be considered carefully before any rule meddling takes place. Given the success of the trials I mentioned previously though, does anything really need changing?

[atomant]

The stationary balancing with constant adjustments was pure pain to watch, especially if you were a few riders back in the queue,

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If the peeps in your example are just doing it for showboating then the time limit penalty would take effect surely and to be honest, I dont see this in the trials I go to.

One of the reasons I say that non-stop shouldnt be brought back, is its too hard for the observers to decide whether they have stopped or not,(same as stopping with your feet up) and then you get the rider remonstrating with the observer over did I , didnt I with the effect of the observer saying" Look I do this for fun, I dont need this crap!" to dissapear never to be seen again!

On another point, we have a large youth section in our club. They see the likes of Raga/Dougie etc and want to emulate them. Some of them may even get good enough to compete at the world level sometime. They learn and practice their skills by riding the easy route, through the clubman route and on upwards inters & expert.

What your saying is that we should stop them being able to stop and balance by this non stop ruling. Which is not what they will face when they get to the higher levels.

I dont mind the rules as they are with the exception of the 1 point for stopping with your feet up (which we dont use anyway). It works for the kids trying to learn to balance and stuff and it works for the average club rider like me.

As Ishy says, "Turn up, get your number and ride it "

[as iow]

As we can see by the amount of posts on this subject everyone has a different view , but at the end of the day trials is a sport and as long as the rules are made clear at the start of the event, i don't think it matters. We have been to several trials recently when halfway through the first lap we find out it's no stop rules, which is OK but it would be better iff it was made clear at the start. When we ride the British youth championships everyone knows the rules so leave them alone, below that, it should be left to the clubs to decide how they run their trials as long as the rules are made clear at the start :madsanta:

The worst thing about trials is when you get some centre expert who thinks he's Adam Raga showing off in the middle of the section , while eveyone else is waiting to have their go, at least the no stop rule would cut out the show off's.