Why don't they JUST grip?

[tman427]

On 7/30/2017 at 4:15 PM, johnnyboxer said:

Not been riding my 4RT for 3-4 months and went out to re-try a few sections that I did, at a recent Trial, that I cleaned on my other 2T bike

Tried on the 4RT and would it grip, no it bloody wouldn't - even with a brand new tyre............. on muddy hillsides and woodland type sections

Grr, I find the front end has a mind of its own sometimes too

Rocks, fine

Streams fine

Mud/Banks..........nope

Need to ride the bike like a 4 stroke...not a 2T. Once you do, you will turn to the torque side.

[jonnyc21]

14 hours ago, jimmyl said:

I found early on with the 4rt to never shut the throttle fully - with the engine braking especially on the early bikes the front would get loaded up and then do its own thing.

I found this out on a flat slippery stream were the 4rt was going all directions and my old 315R would never have - being basically y the same chassis had to be engine related.

If you apply this theory to going across cambers etc - if you shut off fully then front has a higher chance of sliding compared to a 2T

One other thing I have found is that if you do shut off fully if your quick, or know you need to, you can some times keep or regain the control by pulling the clutch in.  I try to not shut off of course but I have found some times I just have trouble so will pull the clutch if needed in a case like that.  

[johnnyboxer]

All good points 

I will try not to fully shut off (which I do) and try to find grip on the overrun 

[spenser]

I have had the same experiences with the 4t bikes, Montesa, Sherco and Beta, and put it down to the type of power that the four stroke delivers. The four stroke generates stronger pulses of power half as often as a two stroke, which has a slightly softer pulse twice as often. Clutch out, or feathered coming out of a turn on marginal traction ground is much harder on the 4t than the 2t for this reason, The stronger pulse of the power stroke breaks the tire free at lower rpm, whereas double the number of softer power strokes makes for a more controllable rear wheel.

Once this has been realized, and a different four stroke technique developed, i can be possible to ride a four stroke as easily as a two stroke.......but why bother, long live the two stroke!

 

Spencer

[steve0]

i find all this really strange coming from an enduro background, the French are renown grass special test specialists mainly because they ride Yam four-strokes having mush better traction in the wet than 2T, indeed it was the perceived wisdom when they were fist reintroduced in the 80's

[turbofurball]

11 hours ago, steve0 said:

i find all this really strange coming from an enduro background, the French are renown grass special test specialists mainly because they ride Yam four-strokes having mush better traction in the wet than 2T, indeed it was the perceived wisdom when they were fist reintroduced in the 80's

Trials bike engines are tuned in radically different ways compared to enduros, and it has a huge effect.  Like old fire engines with two stroke diesel engines, the type doesn't denote performance as much as the engine's construction

[riffraffretro]

This is all VERY interesting to me, having been a 2T rider since the beginning. 

Very early days for me on the 4T, but it is absolutely night and day different to riding my 300 2T; the way the Mont pulls from almost zero revs and close to standstill, is pretty impressive. 

I'll certainly try the overrun technique explained above once the going gets snotty... makes perfect sense, yet I'd never have figured it out for myself.

 

[jimmyl]

The mont benefits from a traditional approach using throttle more than clutch. Once hooked up then you can be very aggressive on the throttle to gain momentum then back off and grip on the over run.

never quite shut off and just play with the throttle and feel the grip - use the lower end torque .

dont be afraid to use a lower gear than others to allow you to ride slow and smooth and feel for grip - the mint will rev high if speed is needed 

[jmutiger]

I have plenty of grip on my 300rr.  I've found the further rearward you can get the pegs the better it is, pretty obvious to me.  But it also took me a while to get used to it.  I'd say it took me a solid 6 months to get used to the timing differences and delivery of power over my old 2ts.  I'll be honest my inexpensive scalvini system helped me get the bike more reactive and seemed like it was tamer which helped with grip. 

 

Give it time it's totally capable but different. 

[syspig]

This topic ain't dead yet - right?

I'm a believer in seeking out input both from those of my own skill level, as well as experts. The voice of experience is certainly worth paying attention to, but quite often - I feel advanced riders forget what it was like starting out. Sure, you recall issues you faced when you were starting out - but it's tough to put your mind back to where it once was.

The only trials bike I'd been aboard until a few days ago was my 4rt. Way more traction than anything else I'd ever ridden, but as I challenged myself, learning grip techniques was critical. Still, while tips read here definitely improved grip for me - finding traction has been a challenge at times. I just wrote it off to needing more experience, as my riding buddies are also on 4rt's and get through tricky sections much better than me.

There are many posts in this thread and elsewhere of experienced 2t riders giving 4t's a try, and eventually going back. More posts still of ex-2t riders who have figured out the proper techniques, and are happy to stay aboard their 4t's. Me - having never been aboard a 2t until last week (see my comment on the Vertigo 200 if interested), I found my traction control issues basically disappeared the minute I got aboard two different 2t's, the Vertigo 200 in particular. I was far better on it within 30 seconds than I was on my 4rt, even after months of riding the Montesa 3-4x a week.

Again, I'm not about to discount observations by those of you with years of experience. Perhaps it's even possible that once my skills progress to a certain level, the fairly drastic difference I noticed will dissipate. I'll just suggest that for some of us, gaining traction on a 2t comes far more naturally - and as a relative beginner, the fewer things I need to concentrate on the better.

[jimmyl]

4rts are certainly an acquired taste and grip on certain terrain can be a challenge but then on rocks  and streams etc  they are well planted and can flatter abilities. What you ride and what you like all come into the equation. Honda build quality are a bonus but as they say you pays your money ??

[rr62]

From my limited experience the trick is to keep it rolling where possible (so not shut off so much as a 2T) in muddy sections and keep it smooth.

[rr62]

And always staggered how bottom will wind up and find grip on steep banks when others (2Ts) are in 2nd/3rd.

[jimmyl]

9 minutes ago, rr62 said:

From my limited experience the trick is to keep it rolling where possible (so not shut off so much as a 2T) in muddy sections and keep it smooth.

Definitely on earlier models. Practiced a tight downhill turn across a camber and back up again with a friend on a beta - he could almost stop then rev and go after the camber - 300rr would just break traction doing it this way. If I kept it rolling - maybe accelerating before I got to the camber rather than on it or after it I could clean it equally as well.

doing same section on 301 I find I can get a lot closer to the 2t technique and a combination of the old 4rt technique and the 2t technique seems to make it easier to clean than either a 4rt or a 2t