Where are all the entries????

[maco]

2 hours ago, baldilocks said:

It's interesting you can't comment on clubman or expert, we are all part of the same sport. Unless we have separate events then everyones needs have to be accommodated. So whilst the easy course is fine for you by your own admission it's too much for others and from my point of view it's limiting the scope for the other courses. The ability range therefore seems too great ? 

Yeah I'd agree the ability range is huge, for you looking at the clubman & easy you probably think it looks far to easy. But for me as an easy rider looking at clubman sections & clubman riders they just look well above my ability. 

One thing I will say is when I've helped one certain NE club mark out, the sections always start with the Clubman course & then the easy & expert is derived from there route. So it may not always been down to making exceptions for the easy lads. 

[timp]

Things are always quiet in the summer.

People are away. Doing other stuff. Making the most of fine weather. Lots of venues are too easy if it's dry in summer so riders don't bother.

Get into September and the trials season gets going properly. Just local we have Brough trial next week. John McDonald trial then Hipwell trial.

They will have good entries. 

Traditionally riders rode scrambles in summer and trials in winter.

[breagh]

Things aside I imagine Trials must be the biggest participant motorsport in the UK.

I know no ones heard of it but there's a few thousand of us out and about every weekend..

I've said many a time there's plenty trials riders out there they just haven't heard about trials yet.

[turbofurball]

11 hours ago, breagh said:

Things aside I imagine Trials must be the biggest participant motorsport in the UK.

I know no ones heard of it but there's a few thousand of us out and about every weekend..

I've said many a time there's plenty trials riders out there they just haven't heard about trials yet.

IIRC Autograss is the biggest participant motorsport for cars, and nobodies heard of that, either

Edited September 1, 2017 by turbofurball

[baldilocks]

Could we do something about structure and what we do? 

It may just be terminology but most centre level experts ride as clubman at national level and clubman at a national is nothing like clubman at a club trial.

We usedto have a term called non expert but something other than clubman would do. Or call easier route at a national Expert and the top class championship or super Expert.

The other issue is of course having an easier route at a national takes entries away from club events in surrounding centres. 

There's no doubt we have too many trials but a national event should be harder than a local event. So do we increase national severity or are we at a point where we just don't have enough better riders for harder nationals ?

Or have regional harder events and ease off club trials. On a regional basis there may be enough entries to make a harder club trial type course viable ?

[timp]

1 hour ago, baldilocks said:

Could we do something about structure and what we do? 

It may just be terminology but most centre level experts ride as clubman at national level and clubman at a national is nothing like clubman at a club trial.

We usedto have a term called non expert but something other than clubman would do. Or call easier route at a national Expert and the top class championship or super Expert.

The other issue is of course having an easier route at a national takes entries away from club events in surrounding centres. 

There's no doubt we have too many trials but a national event should be harder than a local event. So do we increase national severity or are we at a point where we just don't have enough better riders for harder nationals ?

Or have regional harder events and ease off club trials. On a regional basis there may be enough entries to make a harder club trial type course viable ?

I have put it to the east midland centre to have more centre trials with protected dates. But crucially they need to be trials that are worth travelling to.

I don't want to travel 50 miles to a 4 laps of 10 at a poor venue.

[john b]

Great Thread

I think a few issues:-

1 - Entries at trials

At National level you are catering for the <3% who are competing to win - and setting out accordingly. I know I've found this with my son - he's not a bad rider, great on a twinshock - but against the top riders in his class on a modern bike  - he would 5 everything. I've thought on youth there should definitely be an elite class and a national class....and would probably keep more youths in trials and encourage more into riding nationals (great experience, it has been for Chris on Twinshocks). Are National Trials the lifeblood though ? I don't think so - encourage the club riders

2 - New Starters

To be honest I disagree that someone who practices regular cannot do an easy route (Talking NE only !) - I know my first trial (After many years of MX) I lost 147 - its was all about getting used to trials - which is massively different to any other motorcycle sport. I got used to it and went from shockingly bad to bad .....but loved it !!

Could you do conducted and invite adults as their first introduction ? If they find it far too easy, then the easy route should be fine. Would adults ride in a beginners class on conducted ? I would have.

Finding those to organise conducted ? I would help out as I'm sure many others would (my son no longer needs me to ride with him , in fact he doesn't want me to ride with him !!) - get a dozen or so volunteers, you only need 4-5 to run a conducted trial, but needs some centre co-ordination (who ??) to ring round and get a few for each trial

3 - Route marking

Please - just leave as is. Easy is easy, clubman is a challenge and Expert is tougher. Accept people will ride easy for the rest of their life and drop single figures - but hey, this isn't a world championship. A few years ago I won easy route trials (honestly !!) - did I move up - no. I wanted to enjoy it and go to work the next day. Did it stop competitive youths moving up as they wanted to win ? no - they want the challenge. Unfortunately experiences comes with time and you know what trials are tough, what are not so bad, what are gully's, what are rocks, etc etc ......and simply pick and choose......but unfortunately easy might be easy and easy might be tough ! To be honest all those in NE Centre who mark out are experienced enough - leave it to them (they don't get paid for it !!)

I know a lot of questions and not many answers, but only my thoughts..

yours in sport

 

cheers

John

 

 

[cub200]

Previous posts have mentioned having harder sections to sort out the "men from the boys" and that is just the mentality thats killing entries,,,,, we have tie breakers  in the supp regs guys, and we can make up whatever the organisers want to sort out tie's like;

Oldest rider

Oldest bike

First to finish (on a closed circuit course)

Plus all the other usual tie breakers.

Who cares if the top three loose less than 5 marks, the average guys  (75% of the entry) will not loose many as well and will go away with a smile on their faces with no broken bones, all their skin and a bike in one piece,,,,,,, and more importantly,,,,, come back and ride again. 

 

[totty79]

As new starter who "wanted to enjoy it and go to work the next day" the easy route did not work for me..... And I think that's the missing point, new starters aren't usually kids who dream of becoming a world champion and practise accordingly, they're people in their 30/40s who now have enough spare cash to buy a bike and limited time to ride it. 

For me 4 attempts caused multiple minor injuries and expensive bike repairs, I did manage to finish 3 times with 90 to 120 scores but with several weeks of pain/discomfort. After 3 years of occasional practice I probably could now do an easy route, but we can't really expect every new starter to do that can we?

There are two easy solutions, lower the difficulty or put on beginner trials - and I'm pleased to see there are now beginner trials in the region.

[john b]

21 minutes ago, totty79 said:

As new starter who "wanted to enjoy it and go to work the next day" the easy route did not work for me..... And I think that's the missing point, new starters aren't usually kids who dream of becoming a world champion and practise accordingly, they're people in their 30/40s who now have enough spare cash to buy a bike and limited time to ride it. 

For me 4 attempts caused multiple minor injuries and expensive bike repairs, I did manage to finish 3 times with 90 to 120 scores but with several weeks of pain/discomfort. After 3 years of occasional practice I probably could now do an easy route, but we can't really expect every new starter to do that can we?

There are two easy solutions, lower the difficulty or put on beginner trials - and I'm pleased to see there are now beginner trials in the region.

 

Agree completely with the above, but instead of yet another route (easy easy, dead easy, they have been called lots of things) - take the stigma of conducted route being for kids and call it beginners, There is then a level of tuition from more experienced riders (not necessarily experts), half a dozen sections, everyone rides them together, say 6 times, results available straight after the trial, - and I think it would bring people on no end. As I said, I've been there, 147 in my first trial etc - I would have done a beginners conducted route.

cheers

John

 

[on it]

3 hours ago, totty79 said:

As new starter who "wanted to enjoy it and go to work the next day" the easy route did not work for me..... And I think that's the missing point, new starters aren't usually kids who dream of becoming a world champion and practise accordingly, they're people in their 30/40s who now have enough spare cash to buy a bike and limited time to ride it. 

For me 4 attempts caused multiple minor injuries and expensive bike repairs, I did manage to finish 3 times with 90 to 120 scores but with several weeks of pain/discomfort. After 3 years of occasional practice I probably could now do an easy route, but we can't really expect every new starter to do that can we?

There are two easy solutions, lower the difficulty or put on beginner trials - and I'm pleased to see there are now beginner trials in the region.

 

Ive rode in the ne  ,The easy course is no harder than getting round the course !  so why did the easy route not work for you ? what did you expect a ride across a flat field,(tell us so we can sort the problem )or is the main problem here people go get a trials bike go to a trial not knowing what trials is about ?ive been to trials when people walk a stream section from the bank side ! sorry what i see is a lot of riders that are sheep & can not find the line

[baldilocks]

Club trials are the feeder system for the rest of the sport. I think a conducted course for adults is basically a trials school at a trial, great idea.

Section severity can't really get that much easier in a trial that also has to cater for everyone else but this is why we have easy / beginner trials.

By making the easy course even easier you make the gap to clubman even bigger. So the better easy course riders then lose 0 but can't make the jump to the next course giving them nowhere to go. Right through the sport this is a problem, people cannot or don't want to progress to the next level.

Rob Dyson from Alwinton has the best idea on the relationship between courses. The best riders on each course should be able to attempt every section on the next course up, then progress can be made.

I think we need to consider some times whether peoples expectations are realistic ? People don't expect to run a marathon the day after they buy their first running shoes.

When i learned to ride trials I crashed a lot. But the same is true of learning to ski or snowboard,  thousands of people do that, look at downhill mountain biking! Im currently learning to snow board on a dry slope, lots of crashes.  I accept that as part of the challenge and I'll keep going back till I learn to do it.

We can do all that is possible to help people learn but we shouldn't kid them they will never fall off and by no means is everyone who starts trials ever going to be good at it.

If you lost 120 in your first trial your average score is 3 marks a section. Assuming you had a few fives you must have had some single dabs and maybe some cleans. As a beginner that shouldn't be the end of the world.

I'd suggest we are now trying to make trials appeal to different people. The risk takers who used to do trials now have lots of cheaper more exciting alternatives ? 

Trials taster sessions like I got with the snowboard would be good,  where someone can try a trials bike for an hour or so. But that needs someone to run it, it needs a venue , maybe clubs could chip in to buy used bikes?

I'm still a fan of bigger trials, better trials in terms of sections I want to ride not necessarily harder. More sections need more observers but it allows a greater range of section and a better chance of keeping everyone happy.

It needs more effort, 4 laps of the same 10 sections every time a venue is used is dull for everyone.

[totty79]

5 hours ago, on it said:

Ive rode in the ne  ,The easy course is no harder than getting round the course !  so why did the easy route not work for you ? what did you expect a ride across a flat field,(tell us so we can sort the problem )or is the main problem here people go get a trials bike go to a trial not knowing what trials is about ?ive been to trials when people walk a stream section from the bank side ! sorry what i see is a lot of riders that are sheep & can not find the line

How very helpful, basically saying its easy to me, you're just a crap rider and don't even know what trials is about.......and some people liked that post.

There's not much on an easy route I couldn't ride now, but taking this attitude to newcomers is not good for the sport.

The first trial I entered had 6 first timers, the other 5 did not finish, 3 years on I wonder how many of those have sold up and moved on.

Edited September 2, 2017 by totty79

[baldilocks]

@totty79 the part of that post I like is @on it pointing out that if you make the easy course easier again then the sections will be less difficult than actually getting to the sections. 

I think @john b s idea of an adult conducted course can help here. I've helped a couple of new starters in their 40s and it's much  harder to learn later in life as we are much more risk averse.

But if we think in terms of a ski school then the conducted course will also develop as a social group which provides encouragement. It then becomes a separate group in the trial and people move to the easy route when comfortable.

What venues did you ride first @totty79 ? Was it an easy / beginner trial or a centre trial with an easy course ? Two different things called the same which doesn't help either.

[on it]

50 minutes ago, totty79 said:

How very helpful, basically saying its easy to me, you're just a crap rider and don't even know what trials is about.......and some people liked that post.

There's not much on an easy route I couldn't ride now, but taking this attitude to newcomers is not good for the sport.

The first trial I entered had 6 first timers, the other 5 did not finish, 3 years on I wonder how many of those have sold up and moved on.

 were do i say your a crap rider ? are the sections to tight to long ,not enough time to do them see THATS what feed back we need if there are no new riders coming into the sport the sport will die what dose a new rider want to  ride dose not matter what section you put on someone will find it hard (all i was trying to point out what i see is happening at trials and how to improve things)

 

Edited September 2, 2017 by on it
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