thai-ty Posted September 16, 2017 Report Share Posted September 16, 2017 The performance of Pre 65 "heavyweights". Not C15's, not Cubs nor Bantams, but 4 stroke 350's, specifically the Enfield Bullets. Had Brit road bikes all my adult life, but my trials background experience is limited to air cooled 250 2 strokes, a Montesa 247 Cota a long time ago and currently a couple of ty250 mono's. Yes, I know they will be heavier, they won't turn as well etc etc. But, for anyone that knows, please tell me about engine performance compared to a 250 air cooled 2 stroke. Will they loft the front wheel over a log or obstacle with ease just on the throttle etc? Similar low to mid range torque to the ty monos (both have full weight flywheels)? Less snappy, less revvy etc? Been offered a project, just thinking if the end result would leave me disappointed once finished or not. Thanks in advance, look fwd to your views. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suzuki250 Posted September 16, 2017 Report Share Posted September 16, 2017 (edited) If you want expect it to perform like a TY then you will be disappointed, they are very different to modern(ish) trials bikes! Power weight and handling are all very different . Edited September 16, 2017 by suzuki250 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thai-ty Posted September 16, 2017 Author Report Share Posted September 16, 2017 6 hours ago, suzuki250 said: If you want expect it to perform like a TY then you will be disappointed, they are very different to modern(ish) trials bikes! Power weight and handling are all very different . Yes, thank you for your reply. I mentioned generalizations like weight and handling, won't turn as well, heavier clutch (my mono's have a super-light clutch lever), slower gearbox (4 speed vs 6 speed), ratios etc. I'm asking for views and comments specifically on engine performance in a trials scenario compared to air cooled 2 stroke 250's. Somebody who has ridden both genres and can compare. Heavy weight Brit 350 singles, converted with all mod cons to a trials machine. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2stroke4stroke Posted September 16, 2017 Report Share Posted September 16, 2017 (edited) I have ridden a Triumph twin and various Enfields, the best of which was in a Crusader frame. I have no idea what the currently available "modern" Pre 65s are like to ride (should you wish to remortgage), but results would indicate nothing like a "real" Pre 65. Within the context of your question - did you ever try riding one of your British road bikes off road? Imagine one of those bikes with slightly softer suspension and lower gearing (but nothing as low as a Yam). Putting an Enfield through a section is much like that. Bouncy, heavy, imperfect geometry, nae brakes, heavy controls. I very much enjoyed riding the Enfield and still have the trophies to show a couple of leaderboard results but realised sometime in my Fifties that I was beyond making a competent go of it. Engine response means you have to plan ahead as, while they will plonk, they can take off a bit when you open them up in a tight section such as they were never intended to be ridden in. Realistically, it wouldn't even compare with your old Mont - there's a reason why everyone went Spanish! Edited September 16, 2017 by 2stroke4stroke 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2stroke4stroke Posted September 16, 2017 Report Share Posted September 16, 2017 (edited) I have ridden a Triumph twin and various Enfields, the best of which was in a Crusader frame. I have no personal experience of what the currently available "modern" Pre 65' s are like to ride (should you wish to remortgage). Within the context of your question - did you ever try riding one of your British road bikes off road? Imagine one of those bikes with slightly softer suspension and lower gearing (but nothing as low as a Yam). Putting an Enfield through a section is much like that. Bouncy, heavy, imperfect geometry, nae brakes, heavy controls. I very much enjoyed riding the Enfield and still have the trophies to show a couple of leaderboard results but realised sometime in my Fifties that I was beyond making a competent go of it, mainly due to the weight, but I suppose that was no surprise to rediscover what young men had discovered in the Sixties. Get things right and it's OK but once in trouble it's hard to get back. Realistically, it wouldn't compare even with your old Mont - there's a reason why everyone went Spanish! Edited September 16, 2017 by 2stroke4stroke 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thai-ty Posted September 17, 2017 Author Report Share Posted September 17, 2017 14 hours ago, 2stroke4stroke said: I have ridden a Triumph twin and various Enfields, the best of which was in a Crusader frame. I have no idea what the currently available "modern" Pre 65s are like to ride (should you wish to remortgage), but results would indicate nothing like a "real" Pre 65. Within the context of your question - did you ever try riding one of your British road bikes off road? Imagine one of those bikes with slightly softer suspension and lower gearing (but nothing as low as a Yam). Putting an Enfield through a section is much like that. Bouncy, heavy, imperfect geometry, nae brakes, heavy controls. I very much enjoyed riding the Enfield and still have the trophies to show a couple of leaderboard results but realised sometime in my Fifties that I was beyond making a competent go of it. Engine response means you have to plan ahead as, while they will plonk, they can take off a bit when you open them up in a tight section such as they were never intended to be ridden in. Realistically, it wouldn't even compare with your old Mont - there's a reason why everyone went Spanish! Thank you for that. Appreciate the reply. That is the type of info I was looking for. Anybody else with input that could finally put me off my daft idea? If I built this bike, there is no competition in this area, certainly no Pre 65, let alone a twinshock class in the whole country. Just a small trials community in the NW (i'm in the NE - a day's drive away) riding modern stuff with the odd smattering of air cooled monos and twinshocks. I doubt if there is a Brit off road bike in the whole country. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon v8 Posted September 17, 2017 Report Share Posted September 17, 2017 12 minutes ago, thai-ty said: Thank you for that. Appreciate the reply. That is the type of info I was looking for. Anybody else with input that could finally put me off my daft idea? If I built this bike, there is no competition in this area, certainly no Pre 65, let alone a twinshock class in the whole country. Just a small trials community in the NW (i'm in the NE - a day's drive away) riding modern stuff with the odd smattering of air cooled monos and twinshocks. I doubt if there is a Brit off road bike in the whole country. Do it ! Start a trend, who cares if it's the only one ? They are great fun to ride and if you get it set up well and relearn your riding skills, you can show up the others on their modern bikes. Pre-unit trials bikes may be less capable than mono's, but can be way more satisfying to ride.Tight and twisty sections may not be so good,but if you have muddy stream sections or big hills you will love it,they find grip where often its more difficult on a modern. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timdog Posted September 17, 2017 Report Share Posted September 17, 2017 Depends what you are looking for, trophies or smiles. Also hugely depends on how much work / mods you would do. Most people riding "modern" pre 65 bikes are either using heavily modified frames or newer repro lighter frames, modern fork internals or new old style forks, rear shocks etc. Look at the work listed on a c15 for sale on here and the price! mine is a c15 and the difference between it as a slightly modified proper old bike to now is huge but it is still a big heavy lump. Now turns well, you feel the weight but sometimes that just helps make it hard to knock it offline! Haven't changed gearbox internals so first is as low as i need but result is about 25 mph in top Yes you can lift front wheel, but not the same way as your TY, needs more effort, engine has plenty of power for the stuff you would ride on an old bike. Beauty is it just plonks along and pulls great on hills, feels to have a lot of torque and grip. You can't ride it like a revvy 2 stroke, have to learn how a four stroke engine responds. My clutch is still very heavy but rarely use it in a section, it plonks down to almost dead stop and picks up well so no need to be slipping the clutch. Hard to say how much you would enjoy it, i smile more on mine than on my modern bike but some people have tried it and don't enjoy it. I ride it for fun not results (just as well or i'd be depressed) Think about how much work it needs, how far you want to go to improve it and how much you want to spend because it can become very expensive. In standard form it was never designed to do the things your Mont or TY were 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thai-ty Posted September 17, 2017 Author Report Share Posted September 17, 2017 Thanks guys. Encouragement - that's what I need... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trialsrfun Posted September 17, 2017 Report Share Posted September 17, 2017 Horses for courses is an old saying that probably sums up your question, make sections for the bike then you can enjoy riding it. Then it makes the build very worthwhile. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thai-ty Posted September 18, 2017 Author Report Share Posted September 18, 2017 Yes, smiles not trophies, fun not results. Nothing around here to enter in anyway. Plus I enjoy building bikes these days as much as I do riding them. Bike in question is a road Indian 350 Bullet, c/w disc brake front end, lights and indicators. As far from a basic starting point as you can get. No legal road paperwork here, so ideal for an off road trials bike. My idea is to get the thing below 250lbs or 115 kgs in new money down in weight. I have a Hitchcocks catalogue here as I use them for Amal parts, so I know what i'm letting myself in for, money wise. Drum front brake, alloy rims, s/s spokes, ignition, slim primary chaincase, hi-level ex system, shocks, alloy barrel, different gearing, possible new g/box ratios, small tank - preferably Holtworks as i'm not keen on the Enfield trials shape and a bunch of other stuff I've forgotten to mention. Oh, and plastic mudguards... Probably end up spending a couple of grand on it. Plus point is my labour and time. Have my own machine shop, can make yokes, spindles, fabricate brackets, build engines, true cranks etc. I have read as much as I can, and there are a couple of informative posts on TC regarding Indian Enfields, one of which mentioned they can be made into a decent tool. Thanks again, keep your thoughts coming. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scifi Posted November 18, 2017 Report Share Posted November 18, 2017 A friend of mine used a RE Constelation in trials, but there was one section that he would not attempt as it could be painful. It was a muddy section with a two foot tree log to cross. Not so impossible on a TY175, but a team rescue job for the RE. . 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldaz Posted November 26, 2017 Report Share Posted November 26, 2017 I used to ride the old Brit bikes off-road late '50's through the '60's, even road some trials on a 250 AJS back then. For information, there's a guy name Michael Waller has some very informative videos on youtube, describing how he builds pre '65 trials bikes - think you would enjoy the series. I'm getting closer to completion on the Montesa Cota 247 version Ulf Karlsson and thinking of doing something like a pre '65 for my next project. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thai-ty Posted January 2, 2018 Author Report Share Posted January 2, 2018 On 11/26/2017 at 1:32 PM, oldaz said: I used to ride the old Brit bikes off-road late '50's through the '60's, even road some trials on a 250 AJS back then. For information, there's a guy name Michael Waller has some very informative videos on youtube, describing how he builds pre '65 trials bikes - think you would enjoy the series. I'm getting closer to completion on the Montesa Cota 247 version Ulf Karlsson and thinking of doing something like a pre '65 for my next project. Thank you for that. Finally got round to watching some Michael Waller videos. The guy is very talented, and his videos very informative and enjoyable to watch. Far better than a lot out there in YouTube world. Next one i'll be watching is him putting a shaft drive Yam triple in a Commando frame... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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